Quote from John Freeman on September 9, 2023, 6:13 pm

Hello @lucio,

Too "power sensitive", taking things too personally, overreacting to what shouldn't have even been an offense

I think that I’m guilty of that. If you also think that’s the case I’m happy if you feel like sharing any feed-back that would help me to improve on it. In any other case please feel free to ignore this message.

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on September 9, 2023, 8:24 pm

Hey John, no, I have nothing to add to that.

And purposefully so.

It would start a negative dynamic of "who was it" and "if not him, then whom" which I think is a bad dynamic and definitely don't want.

Also, although it wasn't as you intended it:

• Devalues the original message by shifting the focus on what wasn't meant to be the focus and shouldn't be the focus
• Negatively frame the original message as a sort of covert power move or sneaky avoidance of making names.

Instead, the goal is the opposite:

to respect the person who never asked to be given feedback, to potentially add more information for anyone who can guess (and if not, no problem, that's what the other examples are for) and if it ever came to be, to potentially benefit the interested person in case he may read it, understand, and get his feedback -which for other reasons, including the value of my time, I chose not to give him directly at the time-.

So whenever I write something about someone in the forum without directly mentioning him, I'd rather not be involved in any discussion or "who it may be" or "was it me" -or anything that may go in that direction and, to be on the safe side, thread-expanding on it with feedback to anyone else on similar possible topics, whether the issues are even there or not-.

Also, generally speaking,  in similar situations it's best to avoid asking for more information in real life as well.
One, because only political game players would enjoy that -because they wanted to attack someone so they relish the opportunity of giving more information (p.s.: obviously, as for anything, there can be cases when that's a valid approach, but definitely not as a general rule-. And even if that was their goal, you still don't want to be the one who enables the political games.
And two, it doesn't frame the asker too well either.

Quote from John Freeman on September 10, 2023, 11:12 am

Hello Lucio,

thank you very much for your answer. My apologies for having put a negative spin on it (if I understood correctly).

I now do think that the value is already in your original message: a behaviour to avoid.

So I guess it comes down to a question: “how can I be assertive and set healthy boundaries without being too power sensitive/taking things personally”. As it is a challenge I have. I’ll start a new thread with that question.

Again, thank you very much for the learning opportunity: I’ll make sure not to do this again in the future.

Quote from John Freeman on September 10, 2023, 12:03 pm

Quote from John Freeman on September 10, 2023, 11:12 am

My apologies for having put a negative spin on it. Not my intention as you noticed.

Correction: removed “if I understood correctly”. Out of place.

edit: text added.

Quote from Gguwad on October 8, 2023, 11:02 am

@lucio

I have gave myself time and thought about our negative experiences ( 2 of them, 65 - 67 in this thread ), to understand why it happened.

I see the problem as combination of quickly assigning bad intentions in case of conflict and wanting to end the discussion on a power up.

The first scenario of me saying "more so than feeling deeply insulted", it was fair to you to take it as a point that I was indeed deeply insulted, but the problem was, you didn't gave me any benefit of the doubt, from my perspective, situation went from 0 - 100 in an instant.
It started with you saying on different topic "If you still have so feedback, post in feedbacks & clarifications", I proceeded with some things I thought were worth talking about and you assuming I am trying to take you down on purpose.

Now, all problem and situation could be avoided if you asked: "You saying more so than being deeply insulted means you are deeply insulted? I just want to make sure". And boom, conflict didn't start in the first place, instead what happened, you assumed I wanted to open a thread of you insulting me and immediately said damning words like those "A thread that even mentions the possibility of me insulting you -or anyone else in the forum- is a thread that I refuse to even engage."

Like all the points I made no longer matter now. You not only assumed what I wanted to do but you immediately corrected your behaviour as if it was indeed the case.

And it doesn't matter it was resolved, as the bad feeling of being accused of bad intentions will still linger in the back of the mind, one may become afraid that the next thing he says will be also misunderstood and used against him immediately.

Now as we go to the next discussion, and another misunderstanding, the argument went sour and I covert power moved instead of calling perceived unfairness out, which you correctly called out but once again, you have assumed the worst, I am trying to win the argument, didn't double check on the argument and said that I was arguing in a bad-faith.

And you may had points, yet you shouldn't assume from the very start that this is what I have done, so I defended strongly, while still understanding that I made a mistake by covert power moving. And here's the second mistake you are making, even thought you said I am right in many points, you still used many power moves to make sure you will come power up from this exchange like: "Amid some other minor power moves that for this time I'm gonna let slip", "Now you know not use power moves or manipulative frames on others on this forum. So don't do it anymore." and "It's generally a good idea to avoid pulling power moves -and having an attitude- with those who are higher status".

Now, that really makes the point stick that I was the one who made the mistake and what is the worse about it, in case of "power moves I will now let slide" you say I made some points that I don't understand, which leave me fairly weak in power exchange, as I made some mistake I am unable to correct but accept that I am in the wrong. It was unnedlessly emphasized that I made a mistake so I felt bad and of course in this situation it's only sensible that I will continue discussion, by getting some power back or clarifying what I did wrong to look good to myself and also to others, that I want to improve.

Then you respond to silence and it really leaves me wondering, do you think I am so bad it's not worth to continue having discussion with me?

You should've instead said "You make some valid points, I will make sure to avoid this mistake and you will avoid this mistake in the future, agreed?" In this way we can end in a way that doesn't leave any side disempowered, yet you frame expanded massively in a way that didn't let me recover in any way without asking for clarification and I can only understand that indeed this situation will end best if it's dealt with quickly.

So I understand why you didn't respond to my last clarification, it would just thread expand and waste everyone's time, but yet, you have left me no choice but ask for this clarification, if you didn't want to continue the conversation the most optimal way would be to not thread expand on my mistake and highlight that I did many other mistakes.

Instead the way you did it made a heavy risk that I will feel disillusioned and frustrated and I will simply leave the forum (which in some part happened, I am not happy posting on this forum anymore) for the sake of ensuring you keep your power up.

I wrote this for mutual gain, I wanted to rant and let it out and I think your way of dealing with situation has and will antagonize a lot of people that may have a lot of value to give to this forum ( as I looked at previous conversations I think selffriend may have been one of those people ), which in turn will be a loss for you.

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on October 13, 2023, 8:08 pm

DGX37 and all,

I have several roles here:

1. Individual "me"
2. Forum admin
3. TPM representative

Each has different responsibilities.

PERSONAL

It seems to me you're (still) angry and feel slighted.

And potentially looking for some closure.

But as an individual, it's my choice whether to engage or not.

I felt I had enough reasons to stop before, and I feel even more so now.

So no reply on the valid points nor the power moves.

Speaking of power moves:

ADMIN

We have a no-tolerance policy for power moves.

Since I was personally involved in this case and hence biased, no action (had I not been personally involved, a warning may have been in the cards).

But this reminder must be clear:

Breaking the policy will incur admin intervention.

TPM

The forum must represent TPM's values.

Keeping it power-moves free is part of it.

But we should also seek to meet one's rights to clarification, "closure", and ideally offer learning opportunities for all.

So I spoke with Ali and asked his opinion on this all.

Since I didn't want to further engage, I asked him to provide feedback as an admin, and an uninvolved third party.

I'm glad he was cool with it.

ALI WILL PROVIDE A RESPONSE AND FEEDBACK

Ali will take over to answer and provide feedback on this.

IT ENDS HERE, WITH ALI & THE COMMUNITY

I want this chapter closed and the forum moving in the right direction.

So to avoid dragging this any longer, neither you (DGX37) nor I will reply any further on this matter.

If anyone else besides me and DGX37 wants to weigh in, please do.

The way I see it, when one can help his community stay healthy and value-adding, he may have a responsibility to do so.

So if you have anything to add, do share.

Quote from John Freeman on October 13, 2023, 9:49 pm

Hello Lucio,

as an external observer I think it’s the wisest way to solve it. And to bring some kind of closure as you said.

Quote from Power Duck on October 14, 2023, 1:26 am

I agree with John.

I think that the best thing to do here is simply not thread expand on the matter.

Now personally, about the whole issue with this matter.  We humans aren't perfect, written messages are more likely to be misunderstood than speaking in person and this usually leads to more arguments than usual, myself included in this category.

Sometimes the best friendships and relationships are forged after great misunderstandings and discussions. I've had misunderstandings here in the forum, and those have led me to realize what an amazing community this one is, truly unique in the world, specially compared to the overwhelming majority of internet communities (and even outside of internet communities). Hence the reason for me writing this note.

So before taking any decision, personally, in sticky situations like this I think about which would be the best one leaving feelings outside: forgiving (mentally) or not forgiving someone and giving them a second chance, assuming that it was simply a misunderstanding and no parties had bad intentions or not, and/or deciding to start all over again and show this time that indeed it was a huge misunderstanding or not. All that while also thinking about the possible benefits/drawbacks in the long run.

Nothing more to add.

Cheers.

Quote from Ali Scarlett on October 14, 2023, 4:42 pm

Hi DGX37,

I won't comment on everything, but I'll start at the beginning since it's where many of the points you make in your last post begin.

A Mistranslation Issue

DGX37: "More so than feeling deeply insulted, I decided to use this word to emphasize that I don't find making fun of other people opinions cool."

Here, you say, "More so than feeling deeply insulted." And strictly from an English language standpoint, that directly translates to "More than just feeling deeply insulted [by you/about this] here."

And, you prefaced this by saying, "I understand that you didn't mean me and also you didn't want to insult anyone on the forum."

So, that makes it come across like you're saying, "You didn't mean to insult anyone, but I feel deeply insulted, so you did."

Later on (in your last post), you say that you wanted the benefit of the doubt that you weren't insulted. (And it may be that you wanted the benefit of the doubt that you didn't want to open a discussion on Lucio potentially insulting forum members, but since that's such a serious issue, Lucio has to address it, so I'm not sure that makes sense.)

So, it's confusing to say you were deeply insulted, but wanted the benefit of the doubt that you weren't insulted despite saying clearly that you were.

The only logic I could think of reading that part is if what you said wasn't what you meant.

And, you later clarify that you meant to say this:

DGX37: "...what I meant is that I am not deeply insulted, that I instead want to set things straight and show I hold no resentment."

In the future, just saying this part would be fine to avoid confusion.

And if it's the case that you were referring to wanting the benefit of the doubt that you didn't want to start a discussion on Lucio potentially insulting TPM members, let this be a learning:

Whenever you write posts, publish them with the expectation that Lucio will be reading them from a personal, TPM member, and admin standpoint and will respond to anything he deems requiring clarification.

A Mistake on Lucio's Part

I spoke to Lucio about this and he agreed when I gave him this feedback:

Ali: "Now, a feedback for you man (and, as always, feel free to disagree and even push back if you think this is wrong/off). When you said, "That opens a thread about potentially insulting you -or other forum members- which, in my opinion, has no reason to even exist," it felt like you were saying, "Me insulting other forum members would never happen, not even by accident." And implying you "don't make mistakes" like that feels like it points back to what John said about being concerned he couldn't disagree with admins (or he'd risk getting banned). If DGX37 is trying to address what he felt was a mistake and you say you don't make any, then it becomes a frame battle that he can only lose because you have the final say.

*As a note here, I understand what you meant and what you were trying to say, I'm only commenting on how it probably came across due to the wording.

So, I think a better way to phrase it would've been to simply add (even in parentheses and grey font), "Of course, I make mistakes, so it can happen, but I don't think this is such a case." Leaving that out of your response might've been what led DGX37 to say those were "damning words" and that after saying that it framed it as if "all the points he made no longer matter now." And from a leadership perspective (not taking sides yet or saying he was right), I think he had a point."

No Apologizing

Lucio apologized here when he realized his mistake:

Lucio: "I agree and acknowledge that indeed part of my message can be defined as derisive, so you're right DGX37 and I was wrong in saying there wasn't any of that. My bad (maybe next time good idea for me to re-read the whole thing instead of stopping at the catchier part of "naive idiots" and jumping to wrong conclusions)."

However, DGX37 realized he made a mistake as well, but chose to say nothing:

DGX37: "Now as we go to the next discussion, and another misunderstanding, the argument went sour and I covert power moved instead of calling perceived unfairness out, which you correctly called out but once again, you have assumed the worst, I am trying to win the argument, didn't double check on the argument and said that I was arguing in a bad-faith.

Right at that "you correctly called out" would've been a good spot to put a "my bad for that."

Instead, you continue down the path of voicing negative concerns.

And I understand this decision when one is upset and/or seeking closure.

However, generally speaking (and this applies to real-world interactions as well, not just the forum), when one apologizes for their mistake and you don't apologize for yours, it can make them feel that your intention is not to "make things right" or "find a resolution," but to win, maybe even at the cost of the relationship.

And that makes it more difficult for them to want to give you that closure or respond back.

No Response Is Fair Now

See Lucio's post above.

Also, you say here:

DGX37: "Then you respond to [me with] silence and it really leaves me wondering, do you think I am so bad it's not worth to continue having discussion with me?"

It's a mind-reading cognitive distortion to assume that one's reason for not responding is due to thinking, "You're so bad, you're not even worth it."

It can seem like a rational thought in the moment of negative emotions, but it's still an attempt at mind reading since you can't know for sure if that's the case.

So, for your own mental and emotional empowerment, I recommend checking those thoughts.

*Quick Note:

DGX37: "I wrote this for mutual gain, I wanted to rant and let it out and I think your way of dealing with situation has and will antagonize a lot of people that may have a lot of value to give to this forum ( as I looked at previous conversations I think selffriend may have been one of those people ), which in turn will be a loss for you."

Even saying you think that selffriend may have been one of those people is enough to come across as siding with him.

And siding with a user who misbehaved and who nobody had a good connection with is generally a poor move (the opposite of power aligning, sort of "turkey-aligning").

Finally, a +1 to Lucio's decision, only community responses from here forward.