Quote from Power Duck on October 26, 2023, 7:34 pm

Thanks Lucio.

That would explain why I've been feeling a bit less sexual tension today, will dial up the teasing and power/dominance, will probably have to go a bit faster than expected too. Tasking and making her qualify more seem like a good option as well.

About topics of conv. I'll keep it to no hobbies, but rather more intimate stuff. I'm currently reading some topics in SU.

Quote from Power Duck on October 27, 2023, 11:25 am

Today I talked with the girl again on the way to college.

The conv went amazing, she's probably shit testing me and feels more comfortable with me:

PD: can I trust you? (Same joke as the other day)

Her: yes you can blablabla la

PD: can I?

Her: yes because blablabla

PD: alright

Later in the bus:

PD: I don't do x

Her: Can I trust you?

PD: I don't know, can you?

Then she asks me some things while still pushing the "can I trust you", I don't fully comply and ask her back,

We arrived a bit late to campus, she was indecisive to go to class or go to the library so I teach her some things as I proposed the idea:

Her: I'm not sure if I should go

PD: well you are the one that should decide. I won't convince you

Her: what do you think? (Probably wants me to lead, had to be careful, telling her come and do what I proposed so we spend some more time together could make the chasing way more obvious.

PD: I think you're the one that should decide, depending on x and y.

Her: hmm, and you may not be able to explain that to me in another time.

PD makes a gesture as if saying there you go.

PD: well, let's go to he library.

PD: I'll study this other thing as well too (not framing it as only me helping her)

Her: now I feel more guilty, you don't study if you help me.

PD: nah I'll study that other thing too

When we arrived, the campus library hadn't opened yet, so we went and sat in a little park right next to the library.

Conv went great, talked about how we see certain things in life, about our goals, and all that deep stuff. Wanted to keep the conv more humorous so:

PD: you know what's good? Alcohol

Her: what?

PD: alcohol. You have it and there you go happy and with no problems

Her looks at me with disbelief: so you actually drink (I told her before that I don't like partying)

PD: used to, now I don't.

........

PD: another thing that's good are cheesecakes (I remembered you Matthew 🙂)

Talked about our favorite desserts.

PD: cheesecake is your favorite dessert isnt it?

Her: no it's y

PD: you serious? We can't be friends then.

More banter, and then she pulls the same on me but with her favorite dessert.

Later I propose that each other tries the other's favorite dessert in a good place they know, she agrees, she initially thinks it's that each one tries it for separate, later she realizes it's we do it together.

......

I explain things to her in the library and talk a bit, till she has to go ( I don't have class at said hour)

PD: well that's it.

Her: thank you, blablabla.

PD: we'll have that cheesecake, you'll love it.

Her: yeah that's something we have to do.

So, a couple of things I got here:

• Seems like our values align, I like her personality, she's cute and feminine, not as power unaware as I thought.

And,..... I'm actually not that excited about, it. In fact dating seems to not excite me that much anymore, socialising seems a bit boring as well, it's.... weird. I have most of the things I wished to have, power skills, dominance, frame control, they're not  godlike level but definetely better than average, I have more friends, status, etc. But everything feels.... boring, it isn't as exciting as people make it appear.

Studying, reading, martial arts, lifting, psychology, maybe a fighting videogame, PU, those things do catch my attention.

Will propose to date her soon, probably talk to her tomorrow to propose a date on Tuesday after she finishes her exam.

Having all my limiting beliefs broken so fast and so easily, is not overwhelming anymore, it's simply.....disappointing.

Quote from Kavalier on October 27, 2023, 2:52 pm

Rock on, PD! I believe you are doing great. Tje only thing I'd adjust is this:

PD: you know what's good? Alcohol

Her: what?

PD: alcohol. You have it and there you go happy and with no problems

Her looks at me with disbelief: so you actually drink (I told her before that I don't like partying)

PD: used to, now I don't.

Sure, context matters, but it sounds like you U-turned after she disaproved your drinking, even if you were just kidding from the start. Perhaps you could have answered with something like

Sure I do. Not always, but when you are having a good time with a friend or celebrating an achievement, a cup of wine or two is good to have. Don't you drink?

Or if you really were joking and don't drink at all

Hahahaha no, of course not. I thought you were going to agree with that, I'm glad you don't.

Still, I think that "alcohol. You have it and there you go happy and with no problems" sounds a bit too alcoholic, may give the wrong impression. There is a context for it (e.g you're talking about an actual trouble, problem, and you are trying to cheer her up), especially in young, "rebel" years. But ideally you want to associate alcohol with good feelings and not regular instead of a way to cope with problems

Quote from Power Duck on October 27, 2023, 10:05 pm

Thanks Kav, yeah I agree with you, I could've handled it differently, will keep that in mind.

About the girl: I got her WA, talked to her and she engages in conv, does talk a lot so I initially thought that she was really into in me:

• Told her to meet one time: didn't directly told me yes but slightly changed frame. Told me that she would answer me in little time but she had to go for a bit.
• After 3 hours I surfaced the "little" time and setted day and hour, since whether or not she was avoiding it wasn't something sure.
• She writes around 6 messages, bantering, explaining to me why she couldn't answer and apologising. Also tells me that said day maybe she would have plans but nothing sure. I propose the next day of the one I said.
• Tells me that "she would say yes but has ballet everyday", doesnt propose any other alternative yet still ask me stuff about things I told her and teases and baters.
• I task her by telling her to tell me a day in which she can meet, I also provide a way for her to save face in case she doesn't want to reject me directly, I say that I may have my next week full of things to do too.(rebalance the dynamics a bit, I get the feeling that I'm losing lots of power here, she's busy and I want to meet, the fact that she talks a lot is whats preventing the power balance from changing)
• This whole time I kept being warm, engaging in banter and teasing in order to not make the conv only about setting a date.

Im getting tired of this, I'm thinking about stopping this bs and looking for another girl to date, I appreciate femininity nor uselessness or an inability to reject someone, don't waste my time for gods sake. And I don't plan on losing my self respect in order to get kitty/gf.

Edit:

Canceled it, not planning on losing my self respect here, if she actually wanted to meet too bad, I already made up my mind.

Quote from Kavalier on October 27, 2023, 10:55 pm

Yeah, it's a possibility that she's not interested. Or perhaps she is, but unsure. Anyway, maybe it's a good idea to make friends with her. Friendships with women are great, plus it teaches you about women's perspectives on the world.

Quote from Power Duck on October 28, 2023, 12:32 am

Thanks Kav. Yeah, making friends with her might be a good idea, although I have plenty of girl friends, one more won't hurt. I was starting to resent her since I felt she was using me for attention, funny enough some time after I told her that there would be no date she explained and said the things I believe she should have told me the first time she said she couldn't meet:

• All the things she had to do this week.
• That she would tell me when she could hang out.
• That she wanted to eat the cheesecake, all said with lots of warmth.
• That it could be done (both of us meeting) and it was all a matter of talking and the two of us reaching a conclusion.
• Told me: come on PD don't worry about it 😂 (of course I worry, I am asking for a date and you don't even say yes/no, are you trying to avoid the question?)

It's hard not to change idea when I'm told that (of course, except for the last dot), specially considering the collaborative frame.

But still something inside tells me that I shouldn't trust her. Probably my anxious attachment style has gone from obsessive thoughts to a complete lack of trust, still not ideal but at least now I can study while I'm talking with a girl I like. However I still think that it's weird for a girl to not contribute in setting a date with a guy she likes.

To sum it up here's what the "evil/dark side" voice inside my head tells me:

• She doesn't like you, she wants you to think that she likes you so she can keep using you/maintain a friendship.
• Why didn't she propose another day as soon as she told you she couldn't meet?
• Why did she not answer when you asked her for a day in which she could meet?, but did as soon as you canceled all possible plans?
• How isn't the seduction ruined when she thinks you're obsessing and worrying too much?
• Watch her actions not her words.

That dark side includes my insecurities but also knowing how evil and selfish, people can be.

Note for self:

This journal will also include attachment issues.

Quote from B on October 28, 2023, 1:02 am

Hi PD,

I think you're doing great: you're putting yourself out there and learning, and that's what counts.

To improve your game fast, some "tough love" comments on your post:

Quote from Power Duck on October 27, 2023, 10:05 pm

About the girl: I got her WA, talked to her and she engages in conv, does talk a lot so I initially thought that she was really into in me:

IMO it's a mistake to talk a lot on Whatsapp. After you get the contact, better to follow the guideline to:

• send one message to let her have your number;
• then vibe once or twice at most;
• then propose the date.

The more you talk on WA, the less probability you will go out with any woman.

Women (people in general) are turned off by texting a lot, even when they are the ones who initiate it.

• Told her to meet one time: didn't directly told me yes but slightly changed frame. Told me that she would answer me in little time but she had to go for a bit.

Here it would be helpful to know what you wrote to her to troubleshoot.

• After 3 hours I surfaced the "little" time and setted day and hour, since whether or not she was avoiding it wasn't something sure.

If she had not texted you back yet when you did this, this was a mistake.

She told you she would answer you later: when a woman tells you she'll let you know, you texting again is a no-no. You just wait.

If she never texts you back, that's it.

But if she did want to text you, your double text lowers attraction significantly, and pushes her to say "no" to you.

• She writes around 6 messages, bantering, explaining to me why she couldn't answer and apologising. Also tells me that said day maybe she would have plans but nothing sure. I propose the next day of the one I said.

Never propose again immediately after being told "no".

What you should have done after having heard her "I'm busy" is:

• exchange one or two texts on an unrelated theme, maybe something you had discussed;
• and then say goodbye gently.

Then, you wait a week before contacting her again, and only ask her out once again.

She basically has to wonder whether you'll contact her again.

If she again tells you no, you say goodbye politely, and then basically trash the number.

• I task her by telling her to tell me a day in which she can meet, I also provide a way for her to save face in case she doesn't want to reject me directly, I say that I may have my next week full of things to do too.(rebalance the dynamics a bit, I get the feeling that I'm losing lots of power here, she's busy and I want to meet, the fact that she talks a lot is whats preventing the power balance from changing)

Here, you asking her when she could meet after she had already said "can't", comes across as chasing.

It would have been one thing if you had asked at the outset (still not recommended).

But, after she had told you she would be busy, your subcommunication by asking this was basically "I'm available any day you can". Big no-no.

Another pointer: women don't usually communicate directly and straightly like men do.

If a woman is not really interested, she's very likely to still be somewhat warm and conversational.

And then flake out when you propose something specific, or even after agreeing to the date.

This is part of the game, and must be recognized and accepted to be effective in the game.

You said it yourself: what counts are actions, not words.

This, among other things, is why plans should always be specific when proposing a meet-up: it helps you weed out not-really-interested women.

Quote from Kavalier on October 28, 2023, 3:27 am

Hey, Power Duck, Bel

I think Bel's post has lots of good ideas. And I agree with him, you are going out there, talking to girls, learning a lot, this is much more important. And from your posts, you already seem to be getting lots of attention too!

Some thoughs:

 I told her that there would be no date

I think that telling her there would be no date was too brisk. It meets a "not sure" with a hard "then not anymore", which is awkward. First it was a casual "let's meet", now it's a deal breaker, out of nowhere.

Think from the point of view of a girl: you met this interesting guy, he was friendly to you, he was sweet, he offered to teach you something you had trouble with (you relutantly accepted saying that you didn't want to bother him, but he was insistent and you needed it, so you appreciated it and thanked him for his gesture), he was funny and rather a good person to talk to. Then, he suggested dating. So you think: "do I want to date him? I've just met him, I don't know him enough yet to feel safe around him. Or I'm not sure if I am attracted to him. Or I'm not attracted to him, but don't want to hurt his feelings, and he was sweet to me after all". So you don't make any decision.

Then all of a sudden, the guy gets angry and tells you "there will be no date". It's out of place. Women are on the receiving end of gender-based violence, so they have to be extra attuned to signs of social awkwardness in men they meet.

(Or, if you can't visualize yourself being a girl, imagine instead that you are you, but a girl you're not attracted to assumes the role of PD: she teaches you math, talks to you on the bus and all. Would you be willing to date her just because of this? If you eventually go out with her "to eat cheesecake" because you wanted to be nice to her out of gratitude, do you owe her sex? If you don't have sex with her, does it mean that you were using her just because you accepted a favour she herself insisted on doing in the first place? Are you being selfish, or the contrary?)

Sure, she could have given you reasons why she could not meet you the days you suggested, I agree that people should do  it out of consideration and politeness, but... Girls doing this is too common for calling it a major deal breaker. So it's just the way things are, you'll keep encountering it even from girls that are, in fact, interested. What I prefer to do: first I take the message that she may not be interested enough. Then I work with what she gives me: if she's talking and being friendly, talk and be friendly, but don't propose anymore dates. Deprioritize her, but never verbally remove the possibility of you two going out together, as friends or whatever. Then, perhaps she will propose to meet you again (now it's you who decide) and something can happen, perhaps not, but the relationship will evolve to a friendaship or slowly fade out.

Now, I used to do exactly as you did and even outright tell them "now I don't want it anymore". And I thought like this for a long time, until I realized that I was acting like that kid that takes the ball and go home because he can't have the game his way.

Told me: come on PD don't worry about it 😂

It's a power move. But I wouldn't make too much of it for now, consider that, from her point of view, you might have power moved first.

Now, I'm not judging you for hearing the evil voices. We all do, and it's human. And, as I said, I also did hear the same voices (and still hear dark side voices, but saying other things I need to cope with, that if I tell you we'll go off topic :D). And those voices are worth acknowledging, because they provide useful insight to how we feel and think. But after acknowledging them, we must realize they are not realiry,  they're the projections of our own insecurities, as you say. Bel also started a great thread called people sometimes reveal their motives by inferring about others motives. While the thread concerns mainly manipulation, the dark voices are whispering to you not the girl's motives, but your own. Don't assume selfishness on her part. But don't assume the opposite, either. It's too soon for assumptions.

The first and hardest part you did by yourself! You diagnosed them as not real, and evil, and you're right. And even recognized in them your own insecurities. I salute you for bringing them in the open, few people have that courage to admit to talk so overtly about them. And by doing so, you give yourself the opportunity to deal with them, and give us the opportunity to learn with you!

Quote from Kavalier on October 28, 2023, 4:14 am

I'd like to clarify that there are indeed women who manipulate men into doing things for them with allusion to a possibility of a relationship/sex that never materializes. You'll see some of them even being proud of it. But in these cases they make the allure of sex more "visible", insinuating themselves, flirting more heavily, making you believe that they are into you... It has to be visible because if it isn't, the guy won't notice and the manipulation won't work.

But it's not what I saw in this case. All I saw was you being friendly to her and her being friendly back (it's a sign of a well adjusted person. Socially skilled people know better than being rude to people who are friendly to them). Now, from the moment you make your sexual interest in her unambiguous (which has not happened) and she plays along with it instead of rejecting you, then we have manipulation.