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Power duck's journal

#51 · August 6, 2023, 8:46 pm

Thanks for the response and the congratulation Lucio.

Remade the response to make it more straight forward.

I think it's a pretty good response. Indeed that "everyone here hits each other" is just some stupid thing he made up to cover his nastiness. However still the shared frame is that the "joke" was ok. Plus he's a liked member of the family and I see these relatives 3 times a year. So pretty easy to create a me vs them dynamic here. Still I can think many ways in which I end up respond with what you point out without breaking rapport: called U turn technique, if I remember correctly.

Surfacing every time he does it, each time with less warmth. Slowly most family members will realize that I don't appreciate the behaviour and that, will frame him as a nuisance. When it's pretty clear he's overdoing it, telling him to stop or surfacing would probably be enough if not it's likely a family member will do the work for me.

A note here: I'm aware that this could be that I'm simply scared of facing the consequences of standing up for myself, I'm finding that most of the times somebody disrespects me in an obvious way like this I feel afraid of breaking rapport, still I respond in an obvious but "collaborative" manner that they're behaviour wasn't ok. After all they were the ones that f up.

Of course that's only my take on the topic.

If you disagree with anything, feel free to comment about it 🙂.

Roberto has reacted to this post.

#52 · August 6, 2023, 9:04 pm

Quote from Power Duck on August 6, 2023, 9:04 pm
Quote from John Freeman on August 6, 2023, 8:23 pm
Hello Power Duck,
I agree. The most important step is that you started to self-signal: "I'm not taking this anymore". Rinse and Repeat.
A suggestion: if you want you could experiment with "I" communication in your assertion and setting your boundaries. For instance:
Father: son listen, here that's normal.
Power Duck: well I don't like it.
My analysis of the sub-communication:
Power Duck: what a strange way to ask.
Frames him as being weird, that is an out-group (abnormal behaviour).
*Some laughs after my comment*
The group sides with the attacker and therefore frames you as the out-group.
Cousin's husband: what a strange way to ask? If you were from here you would know that people from here are hitting each other the whole time
Follow-up on above: frame is "you're not one of us, you're the out-group".
Father: son listen, here that's normal.
Follow the norm.
Power Duck: well I might start behaving more like the people here then.
If you guys are being disagreeable I can start being disagreeable.
Father: start then
It's good that you follow the norm.
So to me, you could consider avoiding to enter their frame. I agree with you: it's a great idea to focus on studying frames in PU. We use them on a daily basis. Great ROI.
To me the frame "battle" was: "slapping people in the back of the head is normal" vs "it's not normal".
In a group setting I feel it's a difficult (but not impossible) battle to win when the rest of the group agrees on the norm. I think "I don't like it/I don't accept it/I don't want it" is a more solid frame.
That allows you to still be part of the group but not accepting everything as in: "I love you guys and be part of this family. It's not about this. It's about this behaviour that I don't like/accept being done to me".
And people cannot deny what you think and feel. It's not about "what's normal" (a social negotiation) anymore. It's about what you think and feel. People may not respect it but expressing it signals to yourself that you respect yourself. Nobody can take this away from you.
Boom! Thanks John
Wow, I was thinking to make a post about this issue: "handling nastiness when the shared frame is that there's no nastiness".
But I do think that you nailed it here and solves my problem, stating that one doesn't agree with the behaviour despite "what's normal" as you point out does prevent one from isolating one self from the group.
I think that low quality people are likely to dismiss your concerns and frame you as being too thin skinned. Still worth giving it a try though.
In this case I believe the correct mindset here would be : " Rapport could be broken when I state that I didn't appreciate it and an uncomfortable moment could occur, but that's their fault, I just demanded fair treatment in a respectful manner" if they don't agree with you and further disrespect you, you may have lose the battle but now you know for sure who you are going to dump.
In fact I think this is a great mindset to add:
Even if the shared frame is that disrespect is ok, (in most occasions) still demand proper treatment.
(If they deny your concerns and even more still disrespect you, give some use to that antifragile ego. They have lost a good ally and you know who to get rid of)
Thanks again John, you changed how I view things. In fact now I think that Lucio's response is even more on point that what I thought, add some warm to it and you're good.
Only my take on the topic, of course feel free to comment or correct me if you think I missed something.
P.S:
Btw I think that analysis was on point. The only thing is that I think my father meant that: I get started hitting people, as if saying come on hit me. I could be wrong here though, or be both of the things we pointed out.

Quote from John Freeman on August 6, 2023, 8:23 pm
Hello Power Duck,
I agree. The most important step is that you started to self-signal: "I'm not taking this anymore". Rinse and Repeat.
A suggestion: if you want you could experiment with "I" communication in your assertion and setting your boundaries. For instance:
Father: son listen, here that's normal.
Power Duck: well I don't like it.
My analysis of the sub-communication:
Power Duck: what a strange way to ask.
Frames him as being weird, that is an out-group (abnormal behaviour).
*Some laughs after my comment*
The group sides with the attacker and therefore frames you as the out-group.
Cousin's husband: what a strange way to ask? If you were from here you would know that people from here are hitting each other the whole time
Follow-up on above: frame is "you're not one of us, you're the out-group".
Father: son listen, here that's normal.
Follow the norm.
Power Duck: well I might start behaving more like the people here then.
If you guys are being disagreeable I can start being disagreeable.
Father: start then
It's good that you follow the norm.
So to me, you could consider avoiding to enter their frame. I agree with you: it's a great idea to focus on studying frames in PU. We use them on a daily basis. Great ROI.
To me the frame "battle" was: "slapping people in the back of the head is normal" vs "it's not normal".
In a group setting I feel it's a difficult (but not impossible) battle to win when the rest of the group agrees on the norm. I think "I don't like it/I don't accept it/I don't want it" is a more solid frame.
That allows you to still be part of the group but not accepting everything as in: "I love you guys and be part of this family. It's not about this. It's about this behaviour that I don't like/accept being done to me".
And people cannot deny what you think and feel. It's not about "what's normal" (a social negotiation) anymore. It's about what you think and feel. People may not respect it but expressing it signals to yourself that you respect yourself. Nobody can take this away from you.

Boom! Thanks John

Wow, I was thinking to make a post about this issue: "handling nastiness when the shared frame is that there's no nastiness".

But I do think that you nailed it here and solves my problem, stating that one doesn't agree with the behaviour despite "what's normal" as you point out does prevent one from isolating one self from the group.

I think that low quality people are likely to dismiss your concerns and frame you as being too thin skinned. Still worth giving it a try though.

In this case I believe the correct mindset here would be : " Rapport could be broken when I state that I didn't appreciate it and an uncomfortable moment could occur, but that's their fault, I just demanded fair treatment in a respectful manner" if they don't agree with you and further disrespect you, you may have lose the battle but now you know for sure who you are going to dump.

In fact I think this is a great mindset to add:

Even if the shared frame is that disrespect is ok, (in most occasions) still demand proper treatment.

(If they deny your concerns and even more still disrespect you, give some use to that antifragile ego. They have lost a good ally and you know who to get rid of)

Thanks again John, you changed how I view things. In fact now I think that Lucio's response is even more on point that what I thought, add some warm to it and you're good.

Only my take on the topic, of course feel free to comment or correct me if you think I missed something.

P.S:

Btw I think that analysis was on point. The only thing is that I think my father meant that: I get started hitting people, as if saying come on hit me. I could be wrong here though, or be both of the things we pointed out.

John Freeman, Roberto and sillygoose9845 have reacted to this post.

#53 · August 6, 2023, 9:32 pm

Quote from John Freeman on August 6, 2023, 9:32 pm
I'm glad it's helpful Power Duck :)
It's inspiring to see someone soaring and standing up for themselves, thanks for sharing.
I think that low quality people are likely to dismiss your concerns and frame you as being too thin skinned. Still worth giving it a try though.
That's the disempowering belief I think. Behind hides: "If I assert myself people will shun/reject/ostracize/make fun of me" or if I "If I demand respect people will shun/reject/ostracize/make fun of me".
A more empowering belief could be: "If I don't assert myself people will shun/reject/ostracize/make fun of me" or "If I don't demand respect people will shun/reject/ostracize/make fun of me".
Or any variation that would replace the first above. The mindset is: "if I don't put myself first, no one else will" or "If I don't demand respect how can i expect people to respect me".
Here is the awesome shorts on respect from Lucio.
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/F-stCdtOvgw
Even if the shared frame is that disrespect is ok
Disrespect is not ok. That's what I believe. To me, you or anyone.
I get started hitting people, as if saying come on hit me.
I think I understood he meant: "hit me my son". So basically if you did you would behave as the person whose behaviours you did not like. That would be joining the turkeys if you excuse my expression. I do respect your family, I'm talking about mindset here. So it would be about behaving as they do, which you don't like. So their frame would win if they could get you to do what you don't like being done onto you. It's dark power.
So to get the respect you deserve you will encounter push-backs, anger, disapproval and mockery. That's 100% guarantee. If people disrespect you: either you accept it and submit or you don't and there's a conflict. It's up to you to see if getting the respect you want is worth the conflicts you'll encounter along the way.
Of course with frame control you can smoothen it and navigate the conflict. Anyway, to make the disrespect stop a "no" has to come from you in the first place. The shape it takes varies from situation to situation.
The core belief that is useful for all of us is: "I deserve respect". From anyone.
Something that I noticed is that when we resist other people's dominance that's when they actually respect us. When we show our teeth.

I'm glad it's helpful Power Duck :)

It's inspiring to see someone soaring and standing up for themselves, thanks for sharing.

I think that low quality people are likely to dismiss your concerns and frame you as being too thin skinned. Still worth giving it a try though.

That's the disempowering belief I think. Behind hides: "If I assert myself people will shun/reject/ostracize/make fun of me" or if I "If I demand respect people will shun/reject/ostracize/make fun of me".

A more empowering belief could be: "If I don't assert myself people will shun/reject/ostracize/make fun of me" or "If I don't demand respect people will shun/reject/ostracize/make fun of me".

Or any variation that would replace the first above. The mindset is: "if I don't put myself first, no one else will" or "If I don't demand respect how can i expect people to respect me".

Here is the awesome shorts on respect from Lucio.

Even if the shared frame is that disrespect is ok

Disrespect is not ok. That's what I believe. To me, you or anyone.

I get started hitting people, as if saying come on hit me.

I think I understood he meant: "hit me my son". So basically if you did you would behave as the person whose behaviours you did not like. That would be joining the turkeys if you excuse my expression. I do respect your family, I'm talking about mindset here. So it would be about behaving as they do, which you don't like. So their frame would win if they could get you to do what you don't like being done onto you. It's dark power.

So to get the respect you deserve you will encounter push-backs, anger, disapproval and mockery. That's 100% guarantee. If people disrespect you: either you accept it and submit or you don't and there's a conflict. It's up to you to see if getting the respect you want is worth the conflicts you'll encounter along the way.

Of course with frame control you can smoothen it and navigate the conflict. Anyway, to make the disrespect stop a "no" has to come from you in the first place. The shape it takes varies from situation to situation.

The core belief that is useful for all of us is: "I deserve respect". From anyone.

Something that I noticed is that when we resist other people's dominance that's when they actually respect us. When we show our teeth.

Roberto and Power Duck have reacted to this post.

#54 · August 6, 2023, 9:49 pm

Quote from Power Duck on August 6, 2023, 9:04 pm
In fact I think this is a great mindset to add:
Even if the shared frame is that disrespect is ok, (in most occasions) still demand proper treatment.
(If they deny your concerns and even more still disrespect you, give some use to that antifragile ego. They have lost a good ally and you know who to get rid of)

Quick note on this:

I don't think that anyone had the shared frame that "disrespect is OK".

That's just a (manipulative) front.

Maybe, maybe the "tolerance" towards disrespect is different.

But you can rest assured they wouldn't like them being disrespected.

The true frame behind that fake front is probably more like this:

Disrespect is OK towards you (because you're the junior of the family, and it's OK towards those who are around or below our status and/or who can't or don't know how to enforce boundaries).

It's an important difference because when you're more grounded once you can see through the fake frame.
Less likely to fall for manipulations, and with more options.

You can either simply say "don't care, I don't like it" as John says -a great and high power option-.

OR, you can also choose to surface/dismantle the fake front (which is what my original option was doing).

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#55 · August 6, 2023, 10:11 pm

Thanks again John.

That's 100% guarantee. If people disrespect you: either you accept it and submit or you don't and there's a conflict. It's up to you to see if getting the respect you want is worth the conflicts you'll encounter along the way.

This is actually really motivating. No half ass*ng here. You either demand respect no matter what, or you fail when you start doubting yourself.

Disrespect is not ok. That's what I believe. To me, you or anyone.

100%. Some people unfortunately see disrespect as "just a joke". Your response and Lucio's response have made me realize that one has to stand his ground with this people even if there's disagreement in this notion.

About my family. I don't think they aren't very high quality. I know they have their reasons for being the way they are. They're not bad people, but they simply don't recognize that they have issues to solve as most of us have/once had.

By the way tomorrow I'll see this relatives again. Can't wait to see how it'll go :p

OFF TOPIC

Lately I'm listening to subliminals while sleeping as well as reading affirmations. I do believe it's working, thanks for telling me about them. I'm lately more motivated to study and get things done :)

By the way John, I found this YouTube channel during my red pill phase and helped me to change some beliefs, I've been seeing some videos again. Maybe you'll find this interesting. Not very scientific if you ask me, but has some cool videos.

ENF OFF TOPIC

John Freeman, Roberto and sillygoose9845 have reacted to this post.

#56 · August 6, 2023, 10:23 pm

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on August 6, 2023, 9:49 pm
Quote from Power Duck on August 6, 2023, 9:04 pm
In fact I think this is a great mindset to add:
Even if the shared frame is that disrespect is ok, (in most occasions) still demand proper treatment.
(If they deny your concerns and even more still disrespect you, give some use to that antifragile ego. They have lost a good ally and you know who to get rid of)
Quick note on this:
I don't think that anyone had the shared frame that "disrespect is OK".
That's just a (manipulative) front.
Maybe, maybe the "tolerance" towards disrespect is different.
But you can rest assured they wouldn't like them being disrespected.
The true frame behind that fake front is probably more like this:
Disrespect is OK towards you (because you're the junior of the family, and it's OK towards those who are around or below our status and/or who can't or don't know how to enforce boundaries).
It's an important difference because when you're more grounded once you can see through the fake frame.
Less likely to fall for manipulations, and with more options.
You can either simply say "don't care, I don't like it" as John says -a great and high power option-.
OR, you can also choose to surface/dismantle the fake front (which is what my original option was doing).

Thanks for the response Lucio.

OR, you can also choose to surface/dismantle the fake front (which is what my original option was doing).

Yeah, after some thought I now think your option wasn't actually "too much". Im realizing I was wrong in certain things, mainly this: "Sometimes you have to break rapport when others disrespect you", or at least be willing to break rapport.

Agree about the disrespect part too.

#57 · August 6, 2023, 10:29 pm

You're going to the next level...fast :)

Looking forward to know how it went.

Off-topic

Lately I'm listening to subliminals while sleeping as well as reading affirmations.

I do the same.

Thanks for the link, I'll check it out.

If you're interested, the one I use is this. It is not free but I think it's worth the price. If you have any questions I'm happy to answer. I'm am not affiliated to them in any way.

You can test them for free here (limited version).

/Off-topic.

Power Duck has reacted to this post.

#58 · August 6, 2023, 11:11 pm

Thanks John. I'll give it a look.

And thanks for the encouragement too. Im seeing lots of progress lately 💪.

Btw the channel I linked isn't so much about subliminals but rather about the subconscious mind, law of attraction, stoicism, etc. But in a very superficial level. Basically motivational videos.

#59 · August 6, 2023, 11:59 pm

Quote from B on August 6, 2023, 11:59 pm
Quote from Power Duck on August 6, 2023, 6:44 pm
Effective use of silver bullet technique to surface nastiness:
Currently visiting some relatives. These past days the husbands of two cousins have been playing power moves on me. Most of the time I defended with half as*ed frame control "techniques", basically whatever came to mind. Today after eating a dish one of them made today, the following interaction occured:
Cousin's husband slaps me in the back of the head before asking(not hard but with enough force to move my head) (all the interaction is done in jest and with smiles and laughs, still very disempowering if unchecked)
Cousin's husband: so how was that dish
Power Duck: what a strange way to ask.
*Some laughs after my comment*
Cousin's husband: what a strange way to ask? If you were from here you would know that people from here are hitting each other the whole time
Father: son listen, here that's normal.
Power Duck: well I might start behaving more like the people here then.
Father: start then
Power Duck: come here
I agree that you did great, Power Duck!
To me the laughs after your comment were not meant to mock your response in any way, but rather were an unconscious “loss of status” response on their side.
You were successful in renegotiating status, so much that your relatives tried to reempower themselves with words.
And you successfully held the frame again, by subcommunicating that you’re capable of doing as they do.
I also believe your strong “I can do it back to you” response was well calibrated given the situation, as physical hitting is really really nasty, and stopping it is the first imperative.
The only issue with that kind of response is that people may call your bluff, and then you’d be put in the position of not following up.
After what Lucio suggested, a stronger meta-comment could also be used here IMO:
Father: Son, here that’s normal.
You: I’m surprised that physically hitting someone can somewhat pass for “normal”.
Cousin: It’s a way to banter between friends!
You: I’m sure you’re not trying to find excuses to hit people, but if you want to have a conversation I suggest next time you just ask me “how are you Power Duck?”

Quote from Power Duck on August 6, 2023, 6:44 pm
Effective use of silver bullet technique to surface nastiness:
Currently visiting some relatives. These past days the husbands of two cousins have been playing power moves on me. Most of the time I defended with half as*ed frame control "techniques", basically whatever came to mind. Today after eating a dish one of them made today, the following interaction occured:
Cousin's husband slaps me in the back of the head before asking(not hard but with enough force to move my head) (all the interaction is done in jest and with smiles and laughs, still very disempowering if unchecked)
Cousin's husband: so how was that dish
Power Duck: what a strange way to ask.
*Some laughs after my comment*
Cousin's husband: what a strange way to ask? If you were from here you would know that people from here are hitting each other the whole time
Father: son listen, here that's normal.
Power Duck: well I might start behaving more like the people here then.
Father: start then
Power Duck: come here

I agree that you did great, Power Duck!

To me the laughs after your comment were not meant to mock your response in any way, but rather were an unconscious “loss of status” response on their side.

You were successful in renegotiating status, so much that your relatives tried to reempower themselves with words.

And you successfully held the frame again, by subcommunicating that you’re capable of doing as they do.

I also believe your strong “I can do it back to you” response was well calibrated given the situation, as physical hitting is really really nasty, and stopping it is the first imperative.

The only issue with that kind of response is that people may call your bluff, and then you’d be put in the position of not following up.

After what Lucio suggested, a stronger meta-comment could also be used here IMO:

Father: Son, here that’s normal.
You: I’m surprised that physically hitting someone can somewhat pass for “normal”.
Cousin: It’s a way to banter between friends!
You: I’m sure you’re not trying to find excuses to hit people, but if you want to have a conversation I suggest next time you just ask me “how are you Power Duck?”

Lucio Buffalmano, Roberto and Power Duck have reacted to this post.

#60 · August 7, 2023, 1:04 pm

Thanks Bel.

Maybe I explained myself wrong as it wasn't so much as slapping but rather pushing my head to the side. However it's still really nasty and the responses you all told me still apply.