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Power duck's journal
Quick comment:
The only issue with that kind of response is that people may call your bluff, and then you’d be put in the position of not following up.
Yeah, I agree that's the issue of the physical threat:
- If one bluffs (which I would not recommend) as it's an empty threat then:
- They don't call the bluff: one wins. But if people started the physical confrontation (even if just a push of the head: they dominate and disrespect you) then probably they think they can get away with it and are probably not afraid of the person they did it to. So less probable.
- They call the bluff: one retracts and now one is at a double loss: one has been physically dominated and threats but does nothing. I would call it the "little dog barking".
- If one is really hitting back then the problem is the risk of escalation. One is not in control of the interaction anymore. So one could either avoid the gesture or drawing a strong verbal boundary drawing. Because when it escalates it's out of control. Personally I would take the risk of escalating only for self-preservation.
You've got several different ideas from several people, it's up to you to take and use what makes sense to you.
- When defending against negative frames don't enter their frame, create your own.
Sister: you ate most of the snacks. (You're so selfish)
Power Duck:
you should be thankful for me leaving you some.(I'm a taker, you should be thankful for me not being even more of an assh*le)-You know the doctor told you that you mustn't eat that kind of food anymore. (I worry about you, I actually shouldn't have left you any snacks to eat for your own good )
- Use collaborative frames when defending against negative frames more often. (Or that seem collaborative on the surface, thanks again to Bel)
- Avoid "asshole self defense" when possible.
Successful self defense against multiple negative frames.
Today I had quite an interaction with my parents and aunt while having lunch at my Aunt's place.
Of course all this is supposed to be done in jest, still disempowering though.
Mother/Father : every time we take Power Duck to eat outside, he always picks the most expensive dish. What a coincidence, he says that he only looks at the dish not the price. Plus every time the restaurant has a cheese cake he wants to have one. (Frames me as expensive, not considerate with my parents money, and value taking)
Power Duck: well we eat outside like two times a month, in those few times I think one shouldn't be so obsessed with saving money. Plus the dishes I order are only like 3 or 2 euros more expensive than the ones you order so no big deal. (I use philosopher frame, I address the value taking frame too)
...
Mother: when you finish your studies you'll invite us to eat in a restaurant and I'll ask for the most expensive dish. (Frames herself as able to take decisions for myself, and to decide what I do with the money I earn)
Power Duck: Well, you can't invite yourself to eat outside. I'll invite you two for sure (power aligns with covert frame of me owing them) but you can't decide what I do with my money, and I'll let you ask for whatever dish you want as long as it isn't very expensive, after all it isn't as if I asked for 100€ dishes.
(I reclaim my right to do whatever I want with my money, I take the leadership of the interaction that being who invites who and when, and I frame myself as a good team player. After all there are covert frames that have to be accepted otherwise you'll look like an asshole)
..........
....
Father: Cardio is more healthy than weightlifting, in fact I would say that weightlifting isn't healthy at all, your stuck in the same place only lifting dumbbells.
Power Duck: that's not true at all. Weightlifting can indeed be healthy.
Father: Cardio has always been healthier. (Says something about me not doing cardio) *smiles* do you do cardio in the gym? (As if saying I know you don't do cardio in the gym, hes trying to frame me as a guy with muscles that it's unhealthy)
Power Duck: No (bad I comply, however I purposefully ignore his joking tone and the nastiness behind it. I don't smile while telling him this) however weightlifting can indeed be as healthy as cardio. For example 40 minutes of intense weightlifting with high reps can indeed be as healthy as 15 minutes of cardio.
Father: I'm not sure about that.
Power Duck: I can assure you that.
Father: I'm not sure about that (lower tone of voice)
Power Duck: I can assure it.
Mother: Well he may be right (looking towards my father), after all you don't know about weightlifting.
There are things I could've improved. However I feel overall I did well, there was a moment in which I felt I was defending really well against both my parents and my aunt when they were trying to frame me as a taker. This part was when they were talking about me inviting them, as we talked about yesterday in this post:
- Certain covert frames have to be accepted. They may be too hard to defend. ( Me not owing them)
- It's better not to frame oneself as a value taker but rather as a team player. (Telling them that I won't invite them)
- Certain covert frames do have to be addressed. (Telling them that I will decide when I invite them as well as setting reasonable limits for how much money is spent)
- Frame control isn't so much a back and forth but rather a "negotiation of what was said".****Quoting John****
Some of this thoughts came as "intuition" just while I was responding them (colored part)
****Quoting John****
You can project water you can cup it you can push it you can redirect it. And the social finesse lies often in receiving this flow then redirecting it injecting whatever you may see fit into it and sending it back.
P.S:
Thanks for the input yesterday guys. Maybe today's frame control wasnt perfect, but now I see things in a whole different way.
Great frame imposing. That’s the way it’s done. Sure of yourself and dominant. Your mother joins your side. Hats off.
Significant improvement in self-analysis and frame control in 48 hours. Rinse and Repeat.
Thanks for the honour of the quotes. I’ll probably comment more later.
Rock on Power Duck, you're quickly becoming a beast!
Different idea for a slightly shaming and "flying higher approach", see how this could owrk for you:
Parent: Power Duck always picks the best dish
You: Well, you know what, when we go outside my main focus is spending quality time with my family and I think we can enjoy it eveb more if we also have what we truly like most. As long as we're not starving financially, and I don't think we are, I focus on spending quality time with you guys, that's my priority (and I'd hope you'd feel the same as well. If 2-3 Euros more is an issue, just tell me and I'd have no problem picking something else)
That'd be a bomb.
Usually, it's "expected" that it's the parents and the most mature/enlightened person who focuses on the "deeper/higher" stuff.
Instead, here we'd have the son teach the parents to fly higher than the "venal" 2-3 Euros and focus on what should matter most.
Flying so high here, a little dot in the sky...
As a comment to Power Duck: you probably remember when I said that we get to learn from how other people think and don't have to use/take the exact sentences they propose except in tricky situations. Here I think that these are the kind of tricky situations when using theses exact sentences would be useful.
When Lucio you helped me with the nasty social climber I used the exact sentences you proposed me to tell other people why I had a beef with him. It worked like a charm. So I think this is one of those use cases: tricky situation where the frame has been cemented.
So it needs a big heavy reframe: the big guns.
And then one can re-use this frame until the new reality has been cemented: I'm talking weeks to months here. Family dynamics are highly crystallized and probably in your family money is an important value.
Open to any feed-back on what I wrote above of course.
Hmmm interesting, may I ask which sentence was it John? I'm not sure I remember...
Off-topic
Lucio said:
You know, sometimes in life you realize people either give, or take.
And I decided to be around people who give to others nstead of taking. Sometimes it takes time to recognize it and it's very sad when you do because when you’re not like that, it hits you even harder. It might sound harsh, but I decided some time ago to only choose people who bring others up and not down.
You know, taking or giving are attitude towards others and towards life.
Sometimes you see it in the smaller things before you see in the bigger things.
Like I can make a joke about you now for example, but am I teasing, or am I making fun of you? Am I laughing with you, or am I laughing at you? Am I making a joke, or I am hiding a personal attack behind a joke?
And today it's a joke, tomorrow it might be something bigger. Maybe they lie to your partner about you cheating, or spread rumors about you to ruin your reputation. Because the value-taker is about the attitude.
And I don't need those people.
Do you know what I mean?
From my notes. I translated it in French. Learned it by heart and said it to 3-4 people that knew both of us and were in the middle of the beef.
After the speech they were all reflecting (maybe about the takers in their lives).
The beauty of it: when I asked the question at the end they all without fail slowly nodded and said “yeah” reflectively. This tapped in their deep personal emotional experiences with takers.
I still have chills reading it again. (Not too alpha haha but everyone has feelings right)
/Off-topic
Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on August 10, 2023, 10:01 amRock on Power Duck, you're quickly becoming a beast!
Different idea for a slightly shaming and "flying higher approach", see how this could owrk for you:
Parent: Power Duck always picks the best dish
You: Well, you know what, when we go outside my main focus is spending quality time with my family and I think we can enjoy it eveb more if we also have what we truly like most. As long as we're not starving financially, and I don't think we are, I focus on spending quality time with you guys, that's my priority (and I'd hope you'd feel the same as well. If 2-3 Euros more is an issue, just tell me and I'd have no problem picking something else)That'd be a bomb.
Usually, it's "expected" that it's the parents and the most mature/enlightened person who focuses on the "deeper/higher" stuff.
Instead, here we'd have the son teach the parents to fly higher than the "venal" 2-3 Euros and focus on what should matter most.
Thanks Lucio.
I find this to be very valuable advice. The frame that I'm "expensive" is already cemented and it's often mentioned as a "joke". So learning by heart/internalizing that reframing will not only serve me to defend myself, but also to become higher quality and as you point out to teach my parents to fly higher.
Another thing: Ive always had a hard time gaining weight so I eat a lot to gain muscle. This is another thing they use to frame me as expensive, I believe that the reframing that you point out can be used in those situations too. Instead of appealing to "having a good time with my family" (because in this other case it wouldn't make sense) I'll appeal to "self image, physical and mental health and status. Instead of telling them that: "They don't care if I get skinny again".
Overall from your response what I learned is to: appeal to "nobler motives".
OFF-TOPIC
Thank you for sharing this, John!
Even if something "makes sense" and sounds solid, it's always "much better" and very helpful to know what was used and "proven to work" in real life.
OFF-TOPIC
