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Power duck's journal

#71 · August 10, 2023, 12:30 pm

Quote from John Freeman on August 10, 2023, 10:23 am
Flying so high here, a little dot in the sky...
As a comment to Power Duck: you probably remember when I said that we get to learn from how other people think and don't have to use/take the exact sentences they propose except in tricky situations. Here I think that these are the kind of tricky situations when using theses exact sentences would be useful.
When Lucio you helped me with the nasty social climber I used the exact sentences you proposed me to tell other people why I had a beef with him. It worked like a charm. So I think this is one of those use cases: tricky situation where the frame has been cemented.
So it needs a big heavy reframe: the big guns.
And then one can re-use this frame until the new reality has been cemented: I'm talking weeks to months here. Family dynamics are highly crystallized and probably in your family money is an important value.
Open to any feed-back on what I wrote above of course.

Thanks John.

I agree with you, in certain ocassions it's better to learn the exact sentences. In fact this whole situation made me realize a thing about one thing I told you, in which I was mistaken:

It's not that one comes across as "too much/corny". It's that turkeys refuse to fly higher.

What happened yesterday and the response that Lucio has given me has made it cristal clear for me:

When one wants to be high quality, he runs the risk of making low quality feel uncomfortable (and he has to be willing to make them uncomfortable). Pointing out that a cemented dynamic is wrong, specially when that dynamic is being used to avoid intimacy and/or to cope with unresolved issues, will be uncomfortable for low quality individuals.

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#72 · August 10, 2023, 12:36 pm

Quote from Power Duck on August 10, 2023, 12:36 pm
Quote from John Freeman on August 10, 2023, 11:24 am
Off-topic
Lucio said:
You know, sometimes in life you realize people either give, or take.
And I decided to be around people who give to others nstead of taking. Sometimes it takes time to recognize it and it's very sad when you do because when you’re not like that, it hits you even harder. It might sound harsh, but I decided some time ago to only choose people who bring others up and not down.
You know, taking or giving are attitude towards others and towards life.
Sometimes you see it in the smaller things before you see in the bigger things.
Like I can make a joke about you now for example, but am I teasing, or am I making fun of you? Am I laughing with you, or am I laughing at you? Am I making a joke, or I am hiding a personal attack behind a joke?
And today it's a joke, tomorrow it might be something bigger. Maybe they lie to your partner about you cheating, or spread rumors about you to ruin your reputation. Because the value-taker is about the attitude.
And I don't need those people.
Do you know what I mean?
From my notes. I translated it in French. Learned it by heart and said it to 3-4 people that knew both of us and were in the middle of the beef.
After the speech they were all reflecting (maybe about the takers in their lives).
The beauty of it: when I asked the question at the end they all without fail slowly nodded and said “yeah” reflectively. This tapped in their deep personal emotional experiences with takers.
I still have chills reading it again. (Not too alpha haha but everyone has feelings right)
/Off-topic
I agree, I think it's a really good reframe. I believe that when one appeals/mentions things that almost everyone agrees with (whether or not they act according to their values is a different matter) it's very hard for the other individual to disagree with what has been said.
Thanks for sharing it.
P.S:
(To be honest I would thank Lucio too, as he was the one that advised you, but it feels weird for me to thank him)

Quote from John Freeman on August 10, 2023, 11:24 am
Off-topic
Lucio said:
You know, sometimes in life you realize people either give, or take.
And I decided to be around people who give to others nstead of taking. Sometimes it takes time to recognize it and it's very sad when you do because when you’re not like that, it hits you even harder. It might sound harsh, but I decided some time ago to only choose people who bring others up and not down.
You know, taking or giving are attitude towards others and towards life.
Sometimes you see it in the smaller things before you see in the bigger things.
Like I can make a joke about you now for example, but am I teasing, or am I making fun of you? Am I laughing with you, or am I laughing at you? Am I making a joke, or I am hiding a personal attack behind a joke?
And today it's a joke, tomorrow it might be something bigger. Maybe they lie to your partner about you cheating, or spread rumors about you to ruin your reputation. Because the value-taker is about the attitude.
And I don't need those people.
Do you know what I mean?
From my notes. I translated it in French. Learned it by heart and said it to 3-4 people that knew both of us and were in the middle of the beef.
After the speech they were all reflecting (maybe about the takers in their lives).
The beauty of it: when I asked the question at the end they all without fail slowly nodded and said “yeah” reflectively. This tapped in their deep personal emotional experiences with takers.
I still have chills reading it again. (Not too alpha haha but everyone has feelings right)
/Off-topic

I agree, I think it's a really good reframe. I believe that when one appeals/mentions things that almost everyone agrees with (whether or not they act according to their values is a different matter) it's very hard for the other individual to disagree with what has been said.

Thanks for sharing it.

P.S:

(To be honest I would thank Lucio too, as he was the one that advised you, but it feels weird for me to thank him)

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#73 · August 10, 2023, 1:03 pm

Yep one has to be ok with becoming higher quality no matter what other people think of it or are doing it. It’s your choice for yourself in the end. It’s totally within your right to autonomy. You’re not harming anyone.

For the quote: I think it’s totally fair to thank Lucio to say the least. In terms of value here is how I view it: I bring a little value for sharing it now the quotes he provided a of value lot by writing it and sharing it. So in this case I think if you thank both people it’s totally fine. You can even specify for what reason you thank each person I think.

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#74 · August 10, 2023, 1:42 pm

Thanks for the response, John.

Sometimes I get the feeling that thanking someone, or apologizing can feel like power moves even if there's no ill intentions behind it.

For example in a case like this if I thank someone that helped me without intentionally doing so, or in an attempt to help somebody else. For me it feels both as being grateful and as disempowering the other person for doing something for me.

From now on I think I'm going to go with the good intentions and not pay much attention to the "potentially" disempowering part (of course if I can avoid disempowering frames I'll do my best to do it).

So from now on, John if by any chance I say something disempowering/ that feels disempowering to you, feel free to tell me if you want to 🙂. The same applies for anybody else that reads this.

(Of course I know that asking for feedback can be bait for social scalpers but I do believe that the majority of folks here are high quality)

And thanks Lucio for the advice you gave John. I believe it's really value adding.

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#75 · August 10, 2023, 2:20 pm

Quote from John Freeman on August 10, 2023, 2:20 pm
Sometimes I get the feeling that thanking someone, or apologizing can feel like power moves even if there's no ill intentions behind it.
In most cases I think it's not. Unfortunately there is no other way to learn than to try. So like everyone of us you will try and fail and learn and improve. We all do it, it's part of the normal learning process.
For example in a case like this if I thank someone that helped me without intentionally doing so, or in an attempt to help somebody else. For me it feels both as being grateful and as disempowering the other person for doing something for me.
I think as long as you don't specifically say or imply that they were doing it because you are higher than them it's fine.
From now on I think I'm going to go with the good intentions and not pay much attention to the "potentially" disempowering part (of course if I can avoid disempowering frames I'll do my best to do it).
That's exactly right. Usually we express ourselves similarly on the forum than in real life so what we learn here helps us to correct our speech in real life.
So from now on, John if by any chance I say something disempowering/ that feels disempowering to you, feel free to tell me if you want to 🙂. The same applies for anybody else that reads this.
Sure. Again I think it's too be viewed as a learning experience: "if I say something that feels disempowering on the forum, probably it's the same with my family and friends"
Analysis
You already did this analysis. I'm indulging in it as well. :)
Mother/Father : every time we take Power Duck to eat outside, he always picks the most expensive dish. What a coincidence, he says that he only looks at the dish not the price. Plus every time the restaurant has a cheese cake he wants to have one.
Frames you as a taker. Not cool in a family. Your mother knows that it's a coincidence you like to eat the "most expensive" (2-3 euros???) dish on the menu. So she's also implying that you're lying when you say it's a coincidence. It's up to them if they are assertive to set a limit: "please do not order more than X, we cannot afford it." or "let's not have dessert here but at home" (to save face). So I would address both.
Power Duck: what do you mean by the most expensive dish?
Surface it to put on the table what are the facts. Before you said it was 2-3 euros more I understood from her phrasing that it was way more than that. So it's exaggerating which a manipulative frame to me.
Power Duck: when I'm at the restaurant you ask me what I like to eat so that's what I'm doing (putting the onus back on them, however there is a bit of justifying in it). Plus when you say "what a coincidence" it implies that I'm not saying the truth.
Something along these lines. Questioning/rejecting the "taker" frame and the "liar" frame.
Mother: when you finish your studies you'll invite us to eat in a restaurant and I'll ask for the most expensive dish.
Man, reading this is painful. So that means that you get shamed at least twice a week for being a student. Their son. So I cannot imagine how annoying it gets if they talk constantly about it. I think it's worth fighting this "taker" frame hard and consistently. It's not cool at all. Here I would follow Lucio's advice and go for a host power move along with humour, collaboration and light shaming:
Power Duck: Hahaha of couuuurse mother (as in "don't be silly mother") I'll invite you to the restaurant (selective reframing, not talking of the most expensive dish, so covert reframing as if the question was: "you'll invite us to the restaurant right?" asking for your approval).
Alternative, more confrontational:
Power Duck: What's up with this "most expensive dish" thing (that you keep bringing up again and again)? (rethorical question). If when we go to the restaurant I choose what I like, we have a good time and after that you shame me for choosing a meal which is 2-3 euros more than yours it takes away from the experience. For me the most important thing is that we're having a good time together (as per Lucio).
Frames her as cheap. So risk of escalation and the return to the "we pay for you how dare you frame". So maybe not the best option, a suggestion though.
Power Duck: Well, you can't invite yourself to eat outside. I'll invite you two for sure (power aligns with covert frame of me owing them) but you can't decide what I do with my money, and I'll let you ask for whatever dish you want as long as it isn't very expensive, after all it isn't as if I asked for 100€ dishes.
That was brilliant. Flawless. Fact-based and funny so light shaming ("you can't invite"), collaborative (I'll invite...), host power, boundaries, surface the exaggeration with an exaggeration of your own. Kudos.
Father: Cardio is more healthy than weightlifting, in fact I would say that weightlifting isn't healthy at all, your stuck in the same place only lifting dumbbells.
Power Duck: that's not true at all. Weightlifting can indeed be healthy.
Father: Cardio has always been healthier. (Says something about me not doing cardio) *smiles* do you do cardio in the gym? (As if saying I know you don't do cardio in the gym, hes trying to frame me as a guy with muscles that it's unhealthy)
Power Duck: No (bad I comply, however I purposefully ignore his joking tone and the nastiness behind it. I don't smile while telling him this) however weightlifting can indeed be as healthy as cardio. For example 40 minutes of intense weightlifting with high reps can indeed be as healthy as 15 minutes of cardio.
Father: I'm not sure about that.
Power Duck: I can assure you that.
Father: I'm not sure about that (lower tone of voice)
Power Duck: I can assure it.
Mother: Well he may be right (looking towards my father), after all you don't know about weightlifting.
This one I already commented on. More details: what you did great is you gave your fact and after your father doubted you you did not provide more justification. You can see how he retreated when you were sure of your fact. So certainty was a strength here.

Sometimes I get the feeling that thanking someone, or apologizing can feel like power moves even if there's no ill intentions behind it.

In most cases I think it's not. Unfortunately there is no other way to learn than to try. So like everyone of us you will try and fail and learn and improve. We all do it, it's part of the normal learning process.

For example in a case like this if I thank someone that helped me without intentionally doing so, or in an attempt to help somebody else. For me it feels both as being grateful and as disempowering the other person for doing something for me.

I think as long as you don't specifically say or imply that they were doing it because you are higher than them it's fine.

From now on I think I'm going to go with the good intentions and not pay much attention to the "potentially" disempowering part (of course if I can avoid disempowering frames I'll do my best to do it).

That's exactly right. Usually we express ourselves similarly on the forum than in real life so what we learn here helps us to correct our speech in real life.

So from now on, John if by any chance I say something disempowering/ that feels disempowering to you, feel free to tell me if you want to 🙂. The same applies for anybody else that reads this.

Sure. Again I think it's too be viewed as a learning experience: "if I say something that feels disempowering on the forum, probably it's the same with my family and friends"

Analysis

You already did this analysis. I'm indulging in it as well. :)

Mother/Father : every time we take Power Duck to eat outside, he always picks the most expensive dish. What a coincidence, he says that he only looks at the dish not the price. Plus every time the restaurant has a cheese cake he wants to have one.

Frames you as a taker. Not cool in a family. Your mother knows that it's a coincidence you like to eat the "most expensive" (2-3 euros???) dish on the menu. So she's also implying that you're lying when you say it's a coincidence. It's up to them if they are assertive to set a limit: "please do not order more than X, we cannot afford it." or "let's not have dessert here but at home" (to save face). So I would address both.

Power Duck: what do you mean by the most expensive dish?

Surface it to put on the table what are the facts. Before you said it was 2-3 euros more I understood from her phrasing that it was way more than that. So it's exaggerating which a manipulative frame to me.

Power Duck: when I'm at the restaurant you ask me what I like to eat so that's what I'm doing (putting the onus back on them, however there is a bit of justifying in it). Plus when you say "what a coincidence" it implies that I'm not saying the truth.

Something along these lines. Questioning/rejecting the "taker" frame and the "liar" frame.

Mother: when you finish your studies you'll invite us to eat in a restaurant and I'll ask for the most expensive dish.

Man, reading this is painful. So that means that you get shamed at least twice a week for being a student. Their son. So I cannot imagine how annoying it gets if they talk constantly about it. I think it's worth fighting this "taker" frame hard and consistently. It's not cool at all. Here I would follow Lucio's advice and go for a host power move along with humour, collaboration and light shaming:

Power Duck: Hahaha of couuuurse mother (as in "don't be silly mother") I'll invite you to the restaurant (selective reframing, not talking of the most expensive dish, so covert reframing as if the question was: "you'll invite us to the restaurant right?" asking for your approval).

Alternative, more confrontational:

Power Duck: What's up with this "most expensive dish" thing (that you keep bringing up again and again)? (rethorical question). If when we go to the restaurant I choose what I like, we have a good time and after that you shame me for choosing a meal which is 2-3 euros more than yours it takes away from the experience. For me the most important thing is that we're having a good time together (as per Lucio).

Frames her as cheap. So risk of escalation and the return to the "we pay for you how dare you frame". So maybe not the best option, a suggestion though.

Power Duck: Well, you can't invite yourself to eat outside. I'll invite you two for sure (power aligns with covert frame of me owing them) but you can't decide what I do with my money, and I'll let you ask for whatever dish you want as long as it isn't very expensive, after all it isn't as if I asked for 100€ dishes.

That was brilliant. Flawless. Fact-based and funny so light shaming ("you can't invite"), collaborative (I'll invite...), host power, boundaries, surface the exaggeration with an exaggeration of your own. Kudos.

Father: Cardio is more healthy than weightlifting, in fact I would say that weightlifting isn't healthy at all, your stuck in the same place only lifting dumbbells.
Power Duck: that's not true at all. Weightlifting can indeed be healthy.
Father: Cardio has always been healthier. (Says something about me not doing cardio) *smiles* do you do cardio in the gym? (As if saying I know you don't do cardio in the gym, hes trying to frame me as a guy with muscles that it's unhealthy)
Power Duck: No (bad I comply, however I purposefully ignore his joking tone and the nastiness behind it. I don't smile while telling him this) however weightlifting can indeed be as healthy as cardio. For example 40 minutes of intense weightlifting with high reps can indeed be as healthy as 15 minutes of cardio.
Father: I'm not sure about that.
Power Duck: I can assure you that.
Father: I'm not sure about that (lower tone of voice)
Power Duck: I can assure it.
Mother: Well he may be right (looking towards my father), after all you don't know about weightlifting.

This one I already commented on. More details: what you did great is you gave your fact and after your father doubted you you did not provide more justification. You can see how he retreated when you were sure of your fact. So certainty was a strength here.

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#76 · August 10, 2023, 8:31 pm

Man, reading this is painful. So that means that you get shamed at least twice a week for being a student. Their son. So I cannot imagine how annoying it gets if they talk constantly about it. I think it's worth fighting this "taker" frame hard and consistently. It's not cool at all.

Thanks for that John, I appreciate it.

They only talk about it sometimes when other family members are around and their tone isn't very nasty so it doesn't feel very bad to be honest, still it's something that I don't appreciate in close relationships.

Thanks for the alternative responses, they're very insightful.

so covert reframing as if the question was: "you'll invite us to the restaurant right?" asking for your approval

I find this in particular really interesting. The fact that I can formulate my speech in order to reframe the tone of a question in such a way is something that hadn't occured to me. Thanks 🙂.

Thanks for the rest of the analysis, and for the encouragement too :).

P.S:

I know there are no ill intentions in your response but rather quite the opposite. However there are certain things that I feel either frame me negatively, or it feels a bit "judgey" if it makes sense. I can elaborate a bit more about it in feedback and clarifications if that's ok with you.

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#77 · August 10, 2023, 8:53 pm

I know there are no ill intentions in your response but rather quite the opposite. However there are certain things that I feel either frame me negatively, or it feels a bit "judgey" if it makes sense. I can elaborate a bit more about it in feedback and clarifications if that's ok with you.

Hello Power Duck, sure I would like to know please.

Yes reading it again I can probably see the part you're talking about.

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#78 · August 10, 2023, 10:48 pm

To fly high and become high quality ignore nasty frames/people/behaviour when possible.

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#79 · August 11, 2023, 2:24 pm

Answering nasty remarks when one doesn't have much time to answer:

Today my sister made a comment that was a bit nasty while we were taking our stuff to the elevator. (We've come back home after visiting relatives)

I brought a dumbell there as I planned to do some weightlifting in my free time, but studying, the forum and PU have kept me busy.

Anyway, so as we were bringing our stuff out she said the following:

In the end you brought the dumbell for what.

Not sure if it makes that much sense in english, but it's pretty obvious that she's saying: "You brought the dumbells for nothing" in a nasty way.

At the moment I couldn't come up with an answer as she was right, all I did was justify myself.

Eventually it dawned on me: I had to adress the tone.

So I could've answered the following:

Power Duck: Not now sister. Keep carrying the stuff.

I frame her and her value taking tone as a nuisance that doesn't deserve my attention.
I frame myself as responsible, and focused on the task at hands. So very eagle and leader like.
I frame her as "irresponsible" for not focusing on the matter at hands.

It's really entertaining and feels satisfying to come up with responses like this, specially when one knows why it works.

Depending on how I put it into words. I could frame myself as more leader like and/or her as a bad team player for not focusing on helping the family but rather on making fun of me. I'll leave that option for more value taking comments.

P.S:

NOTE: I believe this is the "reframing technique" done in a deeper level. I take the nasty part of her frame and reframe it in the way that better suits me.

Nastiness->Value taking/bad/worth adressing directly---(Reframing)---> Not worth adressing directly/not value taking for me but for the "team"

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#80 · August 11, 2023, 11:39 pm

Avoid too much power protecting with confrontational people.
You can power protect a bit less when you have a good history with the other individual or when it was preframed as value adding feedback.
Do not feel afraid for speaking up your mind. Specially if you power protected and didn't pull power moves on the other person. How he reacts to your words tells a lot about him.
Too much power protecting can be strenghtened with leadership/high power behaviour.
First a bit of power protecting then assertive comment/feedback, then power protection/collaborative frames. Always end with positive frames/remarks. People remember how something starts and how something ends, but specially how it ends.

P.S:

Thanks to John for the feedback and for making me realise certain things.

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