Quote from John Freeman on July 23, 2023, 10:02 pm

Golden posts from Lucio and Bel.

I agree with you both that it starts with the realization that Power duck you're pulling ahead of your environment and accepting it.

So one cannot expect others to fly high as you're working on soaring now. So it's about also developing empathy for other people I believe. That is empathy for their stupidity as well. I think it's key as Lucio said not to de-synchronize from the group.

I think emotionally something happens here as well. We want to be included, we fear being rejected, we want to belong, we want to feel understood. And when these events happen, our emotional needs are not being met. I think in becoming "an eagle" or a higher quality person, there will inevitably be this feeling of feeling disconnected from some people from whom we felt connected before. In my experience it's part of the process of self-development. So maybe working also on emotional detachment could be useful in these situations. Taking some emotional distance and observing people's behaviours and gather intel, learn about them: "So auntie likes to make fun of this kind of thing. Mmmh it seems she's teaming up with uncle. It seems it's a rare moment when they bond as they usually fight." So maybe observing them, analyze them and gather info about them. Observing the family dynamics and what role you play inside of it. This is helpful to reverse these situations as it gives you psychological leverage on them if needed.

Several power moves and babying moves where used against you in a string ("come on sit down with the family, don't be silly"). And because they shocked you and they maintained their frame that you were the one being silly (I don't think you were), they could stack up power moves. It was also a group against 1. It was also a family where certain frames have been cemented for years. And I'm guessing that in the family you're not a patriarchal/alpha figure (being the father/mother of the family for instance). So many factors were stacked against you and it is a challenging situation. I would say also gaslighting as you pointed out: your gesture was a kind gesture and you should have deserved status for caring instead of being mocked.

So it's also about realizing: "I'm not the one who has a problem here. They have." And this gives inner confidence. I think by writing here and also talking to friends about these disempowering dynamics could help in seeing clearer in what is happening and to confirm or infirm your perspective on those situations.

I also agree on the "being too nice". It's sometimes hard to hear but it also confirms that we have room to assert ourselves and not accept this kind of behaviour.

I'm happy to have any feed-back on this in case I'm off regarding my observation.

Quote from Power Duck on July 24, 2023, 10:56 pm

Quote from DGX37 on July 23, 2023, 7:32 am

Quote from Power Duck on July 23, 2023, 2:54 am

Lately after social situations I end with the feeling that I'm being disempowered and I don't like it a bit

I can say I am in exactly the same situations. People, even family disrespecting and tasking right and left when you are in good mood so it's unexpected and you keep up the smiles and end up disempowered.

Quote from Power Duck on July 23, 2023, 2:54 am

To be honest I don't want to become an asshole again but it's hard not to want to be one,  most high power folks I know are assholes and they aren't doing that bad. When I behaved like an asshole some people disliked me sure but I got respect and girls were attracted to me. Now I get neither of them. Heck it's even easier to be high power when youre an asshole. However deep inside I know this isn't the right path, since I was a kid I wanted to have good relationships and friendships, being an asshole is definitely who I shouldn't be if I want to have meaningful relationships, plus it isn't the right thing to behave like a jerk with people that don't deserve it

It's undeniable there's this feeling of "fuck you all" to grow resentful so people won't dare to touch you. And also a feeling that this is not an optimal solution.
But this also highlights that this is what most people do, they turn mean, sarcastic, snarky, agressive to battle others people attacks and that in turn shows that road to an eagle is tough as nails but if we reach it, we will rock.
What's the optimal solution then? I personally think that it's not being an asshole to assholes and nice person to nice people, but that's already great step forward and with constant improvement is a good path to become an eagle.

The optimal solution is to be a good, yet still powerful person, elevating both others and yourself, and every asshole, person that doesn't give value or takes it from you, is to be dealt with professionally, with respect to yourself and to them, but demanding good behaviour directly. Everyone has some problems but you don't have the time to deal with them if they can't work them out to at least be respectful to others, so show you don't have time or mood for them, or if you don't care, tactically keep them far from you, only coming when you have some deal to make.
That's overall what I think, but if you have any additions or adjustments to "optimal mindset" feel free to give it.

Quote from Power Duck on July 23, 2023, 2:54 am

Today with my family, I was laughed at after pointing out that a kitten that (that lives where my aunts cottage is) smelled badly and was visibly ill probably had an anus infection. I really don't get where's the funny detail, is looking at google to see which illness could a kitten that isn't being vaccinated/brought to the vet have  and pointing it out to my family that funny? Anyways I don't care if it was funny or not the way they laughed was really disrespectful, and of course they thread expanded the fact that I tried to clean the kitten mucus (because my aunt isn't willing to bring the poor thing to a vet) as well as thread expanding me pointing out the "hilarious" anus infection, then they proceeded to framed me as being a "vet" or someone who should've chosen to study medicine to become a vet. Not only that but my mother later framed me as being "angry/upset" by asking me if I was upset and right after tasked me to "go and sit with the family" she said it with warmth but to me it felt like "come on don't be silly it was just a joke come on sit here with us and stop being angry" which is really really disempowering specially if I obeyed. I played dumb, didn't sit there and stayed where I was.

You want to not thread expand on less lovely details but if the others are hell bent on thread expanding, you escalate ( for example by owning that it annoys you ), by exactly the thoughts you gave here, if you didn't have them there yet, give yourself a time to think of articulation and use Silver Bullet Technique to surface it a bit more and get some time to think of response.

I agree completely that she tried to make you look like you can't take a simple joke and she has to cool you down like you are some child that can't control his temper. What she really does is try to take away your options to fight back by shaming and as we see, it's quite effective, because you felt like you couldn't addres it and not addressing the move is making the frame stay, which in turns make it easy to use the same move again.

And if you show boundaries and giving a frame of "not fond of disrespect" she will probably keep the frame "calm down, why are you so angry" and that's completely okay, because as of now, the view of outsider on who is right or wrong is neutral ( if she does it to others then that changes things ), but every time she does it and every time you check it, the frame "you're annoying" is becoming easier and easier to use and her "calm down, no need to be angry" gets weaker and weaker.

Thanks for the response DGX37, I really like your approach to handling assholes/value takers, it shows that one understands that they have their issues(so you diminish the resentment you may feel) and emotional detachment.

In MO I agree with you, it's a really good approach, however some individuals/ocassions may call for a more assholish response/behaviour, even if it means not respecting them and throwing them under the bus, sometimes you have to fight fire with fire.

Emotional detachment is something everyone always benefits from though.

I agree completely that she tried to make you look like you can't take a simple joke and she has to cool you down like you are some child that can't control his temper. What she really does is try to take away your options to fight back by shaming and as we see, it's quite effective, because you felt like you couldn't addres it and not addressing the move is making the frame stay, which in turns make it easy to use the same move again.

About this, I think the same however I think she's clueless and doesn't do it on purpose, probably she does it because of the feel-good emotions for one upping others, it makes sense to me that it's this way as she's really clueless about the power the unconscious has over the mind (like most people lol).

I don't know about other family members, some relatives (and non relatives that were there and laughed) may have mental health problems and use one upping/setting negative frames as a way to deal with their problems as you point out.

 

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on July 23, 2023, 11:03 am

Quote from Power Duck on July 23, 2023, 2:54 am

To be honest I don't want to become an asshole again but it's hard not to want to be one,  most high power folks I know are assholes and they aren't doing that bad. When I behaved like an asshole some people disliked me sure but I got respect and girls were attracted to me. Now I get neither of them. Heck it's even easier to be high power when youre an asshole.

Yep, this may be a very deep truth.

Not by chance that 80% are not high power enough, 15% are a takers/assholes high power, and only a minority are more eagle-types.

However, here's a few 2 cents on this:

You may be drawing a far bigger line between "asshole" and "eagle"

If someone misbehaved with you, it may be fair to behave more like an asshole.

Also, there are shades of grey.

As much as a swallow doesn't do spring, you're still overall on a "high-quality" self-development path if you have a few instances of asshole behavior in an overall personality who seeks win-win and prefers treating good people well.

Or one may have zero tolerance for disempowerment and power moves and immediately turn into an asshole, or one can be vengeful and "never forget slights", while still overall wanting to add value to others good people around him.

Not saying those are good, but when I first read your message, I had a feeling you were more talking about a too nice guy, than a high-power man with great character to match.

How to handle your family disempowering you after the anal infection comment

Man, frankly, I read that and thought "you're already ahead of your environment".

So, in a way, that was great news that you're doing great already.

The thing you could have improved there is this:

Quote from Power Duck on July 23, 2023, 2:54 am

I played dumb, didn't sit there and stayed where I was.

This is another case where addressing the issue straight on may have been better.

Since you were showing more maturity than everyone, I'd have played that:

You: What's so funny about, anal infection is a relatively common disease when there is a lack of proper hygiene.
You know, you're supposed be the older folks and show more maturity. Sometimes I'm not sure who are the children around here

Basically, you:

1. hold the strong line that "there is really nothing to laugh about it"
2. take the judge position that they're being immature (and not "good enough" as good role models)
3. self-frame yourself as a better role model than them

The only issue here is that some people may just not be able to see what's a better alternative.
So yes, you may "win" that, but still end up being isolated.

So, in my opinion, what's truly better is to just not to expect great behavior from certain environments, and just meet them where they are, and make the best out of it.

This is a superior approach because it allows you to grow and develop, while also keeping a good (or "good enough") relationship with family and older friends.

From that point of view, this is also a superior approach to deal with that specific situation:

The more advanced "understand & maintain rapport" approach of high-warmth/high-power

You may want to consider that it's relatively normal for people to find some topics funny.

Or to "use" them for scoring a point and leading the "hilarious charge" (which also means one-upping you).

In many cases, people also use laughter to discharge some nervousness they feel around some topics.

So to do it very smoothly, you may want to laugh along a bit first, and then slowly get serious / high-power again.

There is a good real-life audio example for that in PU.

If you search for "rats" or "stale" you should find it.

In that example, I realized that my question COULD come across as weird and that many may find it funny.
Going high power without first aligning would have been a huge rapport-break and I'd have soured the whole environment (it's OK to do it with your family, but not with social circles).

So I align with the laughter before re-framing myself as someone you give attention and respect (and an answer to).

Thanks for the response Lucio,

I had a feeling you were more talking about a too nice guy, than a high-power man with great character to match.

Yep, you guessed right, since I solved my issues I stopped behaving like an asshole and started behaving like a nice guy again, including with my family. However, I do know how to be an asshole and how to "trigger" the thought pattern so it becomes automatic, I would get as much attention from girls and respect as I used to get that way but I wont attract high quality people.

Man, frankly, I read that and thought "you're already ahead of your environment".

So, in a way, that was great news that you're doing great already.

Thanks :).

So, in my opinion, what's truly better is to just not to expect great behavior from certain environments, and just meet them where they are, and make the best out of it.

This is a superior approach because it allows you to grow and develop, while also keeping a good (or "good enough") relationship with family and older friends.

Noted. Today I tried this in my Muay Thai classes, and it did wonders, if people around you behave low warmth you lower it, if people try to dominate you by maintaining eye contact you do the same without overdoing it (you can surface it, but in certain environments you'll make everyone think you're a pussy/making up things creating an us vs him dynamic). Without context it looks like low quality behaviour but it is what it is.

In many cases, people also use laughter to discharge some nervousness they feel around some topics.

So to do it very smoothly, you may want to laugh along a bit first, and then slowly get serious / high-power again.

There is a good real-life audio example for that in PU.

If you search for "rats" or "stale" you should find it.

In that example, I realized that my question COULD come across as weird and that many may find it funny.

Going high power without first aligning would have been a huge rapport-break and I'd have soured the whole environment (it's OK to do it with your family, but not with social circles).

So I align with the laughter before re-framing myself as someone you give attention and respect (and an answer to).

Yeah, I remember it, I was thinking about how I could've applied it after that happened, however thanks for pointing it out you made me realize and remember some things about that situation that I could've applied:

Everyone: *laughs

Me: Hahahahah. Didn't expect that didn't you all. Yeah, I investigated it a bit and it's likely an anal infection. Not rare in dirty animals.

 

Quote from Power Duck on July 25, 2023, 12:14 am

Quote from Bel on July 23, 2023, 4:35 pm

There is one dynamic that is used in some families to keep members "stuck in personal development". It was certainly used in mine.

It is this:

1. provoking anger in the child
2. the child gets angry
3. the parent frames the child as "disrespectful" or "angry for no reason" or "overreacting" (a form of gaslighting)
4. the child feels guilty, because he does not "see" that the anger was deliberately manufactured
5. the guilt leads the child to make amends and further "submit"
6. the child is stuck in the dynamic

I think getting aware of this dynamic and refusing to "take the bait" may be one of the necessary steps in renegotiating power inside the family dynamic.

Or as an alternative one could "hold the frame" that the anger is justified, although this is more difficult as some families just plainly don't accept any anger directed at parents.

I only got aware of this much later in my development. My initial, unconscious solution to "kickstart my personal development" was to just refuse any meaningful contact with my family members.

Thanks for the response Bel.

I dont think that this is my case (not from my family at least, however I know frenemies who have pulled this on me on several ocassions). However you made me think about something. Some relatives have already complained about me being more "easily" triggered than before, or being too hard on people". I don't think calibration is a problem here, although it could be, but I think the main reason is that I don't tolerate my parents bossing me around meaningless stuff.

My mom does this with my father even telling him what clothes he should wear when running errands/going to eat with the family, he even asks her what clothes he has to wear, he has some good qualities but when I realized this,  I lost almost  any respect I had for him. I'm really happy I broke this dynamic by not letting my mother do the same with me.

However I'll remember what you pointed out, the fact that I don't think this is the case doesn't mean it couldn't be, plus I would be better off not talking with some family members or at least having less contact with them too.

 

Quote from John Freeman on July 23, 2023, 10:02 pm

Golden posts from Lucio and Bel.

I agree with you both that it starts with the realization that Power duck you're pulling ahead of your environment and accepting it.

So one cannot expect others to fly high as you're working on soaring now. So it's about also developing empathy for other people I believe. That is empathy for their stupidity as well. I think it's key as Lucio said not to de-synchronize from the group.

I think emotionally something happens here as well. We want to be included, we fear being rejected, we want to belong, we want to feel understood. And when these events happen, our emotional needs are not being met. I think in becoming "an eagle" or a higher quality person, there will inevitably be this feeling of feeling disconnected from some people from whom we felt connected before. In my experience it's part of the process of self-development. So maybe working also on emotional detachment could be useful in these situations. Taking some emotional distance and observing people's behaviours and gather intel, learn about them: "So auntie likes to make fun of this kind of thing. Mmmh it seems she's teaming up with uncle. It seems it's a rare moment when they bond as they usually fight." So maybe observing them, analyze them and gather info about them. Observing the family dynamics and what role you play inside of it. This is helpful to reverse these situations as it gives you psychological leverage on them if needed.

Several power moves and babying moves where used against you in a string ("come on sit down with the family, don't be silly"). And because they shocked you and they maintained their frame that you were the one being silly (I don't think you were), they could stack up power moves. It was also a group against 1. It was also a family where certain frames have been cemented for years. And I'm guessing that in the family you're not a patriarchal/alpha figure (being the father/mother of the family for instance). So many factors were stacked against you and it is a challenging situation. I would say also gaslighting as you pointed out: your gesture was a kind gesture and you should have deserved status for caring instead of being mocked.

So it's also about realizing: "I'm not the one who has a problem here. They have." And this gives inner confidence. I think by writing here and also talking to friends about these disempowering dynamics could help in seeing clearer in what is happening and to confirm or infirm your perspective on those situations.

I also agree on the "being too nice". It's sometimes hard to hear but it also confirms that we have room to assert ourselves and not accept this kind of behaviour.

I'm happy to have any feed-back on this in case I'm off regarding my observation.

Thanks for the response John.

I think emotionally something happens here as well. We want to be included, we fear being rejected, we want to belong, we want to feel understood. And when these events happen, our emotional needs are not being met. I think in becoming "an eagle" or a higher quality person, there will inevitably be this feeling of feeling disconnected from some people from whom we felt connected before. In my experience it's part of the process of self-development. So maybe working also on emotional detachment could be useful in these situations. Taking some emotional distance and observing people's behaviours and gather intel, learn about them: "So auntie likes to make fun of this kind of thing. Mmmh it seems she's teaming up with uncle. It seems it's a rare moment when they bond as they usually fight." So maybe observing them, analyze them and gather info about them. Observing the family dynamics and what role you play inside of it. This is helpful to reverse these situations as it gives you psychological leverage on them if needed.

Yeah, you're right however feeling hurt for not having my emotional needs met was something I felt and had to deal with several years ago when I discovered philosophy and started rethinking everything. Seeing my family not understanding me, sometimes implying I was obsessed with philosophy, and not supporting me or hearing  my existencial crisis and philosophical rants, this of course made it hard to fulfill my emotional needs, same goes for friends. I eventually got used to this, I dont want to fit in with them anymore but what I wanted was to find a group of like-minded people that could understand and support me as well as me to them, already found them by the way :).

I really liked the idea of understanding and observing family dynamics, it shows you that the people that judge you, mock you, or try to behave as if they were better than you are pretty fucked up. Plus it makes easier to understand why some people may use you as a target for their jokes to bond with each other at your expense.

So it's also about realizing: "I'm not the one who has a problem here. They have." And this gives inner confidence. I think by writing here and also talking to friends about these disempowering dynamics could help in seeing clearer in what is happening and to confirm or infirm your perspective on those situations.

Noted. Thanks for pointing that about realizing that theyre the ones behaving as low quality folks, and indeed talking with friends is indeed helping me to realize about these dynamics. I don't know about the concept of friendship people here on the forum may or not may have, but to be honest you all are the closest thing to friends I've had, people supporting each other to improve themselves.

I also agree on the "being too nice". It's sometimes hard to hear but it also confirms that we have room to assert ourselves and not accept this kind of behaviour

It used to be hard to think about that, but I've gotten to a point in which I don't get emotional about those thoughts I just accept I have to put in the work in order to achieve things. Truly valuable things have to be achieved through hard work. And indeed knowing theres room for improvement is a good and motivating thought.

Cheers to you all.

Quote from Power Duck on July 25, 2023, 12:25 am

OFF TOPIC

Apologies for not answering earlier, one day of delay may not be that much for others  but it is for me. Im not able to write/study PU as much as I would want to since I came from my vacation from Belgium. However I'll keep putting in the work, I recently got into a debate club (that organizes nacional competitions), plus I have to set my priorities straight. Ill think about  stop attending to Muay Thai classes.

 

Quote from Power Duck on July 25, 2023, 12:27 am

BEHAVIOURS/HABITS/MINDSETS

• Slightly pucking my lips¿? in a certain way makes it easier to be high power, relaxed and aware of power moves.

Quote from Power Duck on July 27, 2023, 4:53 pm

*Pursing my lips*

Quote from Power Duck on July 28, 2023, 1:01 am

• Im realizing that I am not giving as much as I could to other forum members for this reason I won't write anything in a thread created by me for 1 week.

Quote from Power Duck on July 29, 2023, 12:43 am

*won't create new threads/focus way more on responding to/helping  other members.*

Quote from Power Duck on July 29, 2023, 1:07 am

MINDSETS:

Thanks to John now I have several tips and mindsets I can and will use when dealing with value takers with a competitive mindset, given the time I have I'll copy and paste the tips he gave me:

• The risk is to be afraid of these characters. That’s disempowering to yourself and that’s overestimating them. If they would be that great then they would not need to manipulate and self-aggrandize. So it’s important to not believe their hype. Is really Donald Trump the greatest business man ever? Is there really a witch hunt against him? Most probably not. He’s a very smart and experienced man that’s for sure. He ‘s also one of the best liars I’ve ever seen. That deserves respect yes for the skills and his curriculum. But if one values character over achievement then he’s just a loser. So I think it’s important to take enough distance with what they say about themselves or anything that is in their favour not to fall in their reality (where they win and others lose). [Switching the way in which I value others, said in another way positioning myself in the judge position by reframing what constitutes a winner/human being worthy of respect]

 

• With these characters I would make them believe that I like them. Being superficial but listening to them and congratulate them when they do something well I do it in a social situations. Hell they’re people in the end. To me the trick is emotional management. Is not to feel anything/too strong emotions when we’re with them. Yes if a manipulator makes a good joke I might laugh. But I won’t let my emotions open up. I won’t let them sink a « love hook » in my heart if that makes sense. I don’t allow attachment in other words. I deal with them like I would with a service employee at a newsstand: polite, warmish but superficial. I learned many things from manipulators. It’s good not to paint them as the devil as one might miss learning opportunities. [Understand that they're humans, commit mistakes, have contradicting thoughts and beliefs and more importantly are blinded by their grandiose thoughts to cover their fears and insecurities. Pursing your lips while speaking with them can help you both to enter a high power state and to calm yourself down and think better. You can't mantain stable win-win relationships with them and they can't be changed, so no emotions here] 

 

• The trick is as you said to observe a lot to figure out how they react to what. Also not one-up them as they will take revenge. Also not letting them one-up you and rather go for one-across than one-up to avoid escalation. [Don't counter attack too much, this people think that they have the right to offend you so they will definetely go for their revenge, remember that this people are often motivated by ego and not by reason]

 

• The thing is at some point you will probably think: « in the end she seems nice maybe I was wrong ». I would be very careful with this kind of thoughts. In my experience that’s the moment when we allow ourselves to open up and then they strike and attack our self-esteem. [Never try to change this people, they can't be changed]

 

• It’s important to remember that these kind of individuals have low self-esteem. So they take every opportunity to improve it. And since they’re not able to do it by themselves they « take » yours  to improve them. [Reframing what constitutes a human being worthy of respect again will mentallu put you in the judge position here]

 

• They most likely don’t have a learner mindset so I would avoid constructive criticism. This will most likely backlash as it will be interpreted as an attack.

 

• I would also avoid competing with them as in their mind you might become an enemy. Whatever little the competition is.

 

• So it’s a little bit like interacting with a 5 years old. You tell them how « high you jump! » you’re interested in their sand castles you have fun blowing soap bubbles together but you don’t tell them about your deep feelings or problems. It’s all about them and you’re ok with it. You know they’re not able to care about you and you are not angry because you empathize with their lack of empathy. [Not to baby them, it's about not taking them seriously, they're emotionally inmature, again reframing what constitutes a human being worthy of respect plus seeing how weak minded they truly are will help you to remain calm]

 

• That’s why it’s quite important to differentiate between understanding and making excuses for them. Understanding being that one makes causal links between her life experience and character or between her intentions and behavior. Whereas making excuses lessens responsibility for their actions. In this case even if she was (hypothetically) a good person who got burned by a manipulator she’s still responsible for her behaviour +/- improving it.