Quote from Matthew Whitewood on March 22, 2021, 10:41 am

Quote from selffoe on March 22, 2021, 10:05 am from "Why Musk was a good salesman (Trying to answer the boss question)"

The boss of this website was not sure why Elon Musk was a good salesman: Elon Musk: The Emotional Idiocy of A Genius | The Power Moves

In my humble opinion, we need to first recognize the following facts:

1. High-income or highly educated individuals are more rational (https://www.nber.org/papers/w16791)
2. Group is more rational than individual (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022103103001793?casa_token=sgGeZn1EvkEAAAAA:3TCbGb718awcLki-7pzyHlttaqnz4E4mj4O16sY-B3oYsLLfIYWQJA2O-VHZSMSJCylaZ_kICWo)
3. Large institute is more rational than individual consumer.

Psychologically manipulating consumers or building an emotional bond with the consumers might work well for average individuals, for example in the retail industry, gambling industry, car and housing market. But for the deals between larger institutes or highly educated individuals, people are more convinced with rationality, logics, intelligence, and statistics.

For example, if the boss of this website is buying a house, will he be convinced if the realtor trying to use power-moves on him, elicit (fake) competition, and build a strong emotional bond with him?

I do regard Lucio as the authority of this website.
However, something feels weird by calling Lucio, "the boss of this website".
It may come across as a bit patronising.
What do you think?

In some cases, calling someone boss can be a sarcastic way of pointing out that you do not appreciate their authority or dominant behaviour.
In other cases, people use it to manipulate others by appealing to their ego.

Saying "in my humble opinion" together with stating the points as facts while quoting the links to academic citations also comes off as smart-alecky.

The last question is a leading question.
It implies sales skills are about using power moves and manipulation.

If the objective of the post was to encourage contributions and other perspectives, I would feel more comfortable if the opinions were stated directly.

I may be reading this whole thing wrong so would like a second opinion.

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on March 22, 2021, 4:58 pm

I think you had a great read, Matthew.

Also, I must reject that frame as it's bad for the community.

Think of it from a power dynamics perspective.

If I'm the "boss", what does it make of all the other people who contribute, write, and share?
Are they "non-bosses", "followers" of the boss, with little or no say in the discussion?

That's the opposite of how I see -and what I believe- this community is all about: a group of smart people who group together to improve themselves and their lives, and to substantially increase the odds of reaching their goals (and doing so while generally adding value to the world).

I also see the advancement of power dynamics and social strategies as a community-driven effort, and that's not even a matter of how I see it. Just look at how many ideas, strategies, and definitions came out of this forum, and you'll quickly see that's exactly how it is.

---

@ratdodo

Not sure you're getting notifications man, check out the scope of this thread, which is about giving very honest feedback for growth and requires a rather antifragile ego, but it's all for a good end.
And then see Matthew's message above, and mine here.

Quote from selffriend on March 25, 2021, 3:17 am

Quote from Matthew Whitewood on March 22, 2021, 10:41 am

Quote from selffoe on March 22, 2021, 10:05 am from "Why Musk was a good salesman (Trying to answer the boss question)"

The boss of this website was not sure why Elon Musk was a good salesman: Elon Musk: The Emotional Idiocy of A Genius | The Power Moves

In my humble opinion, we need to first recognize the following facts:

1. High-income or highly educated individuals are more rational (https://www.nber.org/papers/w16791)
2. Group is more rational than individual (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022103103001793?casa_token=sgGeZn1EvkEAAAAA:3TCbGb718awcLki-7pzyHlttaqnz4E4mj4O16sY-B3oYsLLfIYWQJA2O-VHZSMSJCylaZ_kICWo)
3. Large institute is more rational than individual consumer.

Psychologically manipulating consumers or building an emotional bond with the consumers might work well for average individuals, for example in the retail industry, gambling industry, car and housing market. But for the deals between larger institutes or highly educated individuals, people are more convinced with rationality, logics, intelligence, and statistics.

For example, if the boss of this website is buying a house, will he be convinced if the realtor trying to use power-moves on him, elicit (fake) competition, and build a strong emotional bond with him?

I do regard Lucio as the authority of this website.
However, something feels weird by calling Lucio, "the boss of this website".
It may come across as a bit patronising.
What do you think?

In some cases, calling someone boss can be a sarcastic way of pointing out that you do not appreciate their authority or dominant behaviour.
In other cases, people use it to manipulate others by appealing to their ego.

Saying "in my humble opinion" together with stating the points as facts while quoting the links to academic citations also comes off as smart-alecky.

The last question is a leading question.
It implies sales skills are about using power moves and manipulation.

If the objective of the post was to encourage contributions and other perspectives, I would feel more comfortable if the opinions were stated directly.

I may be reading this whole thing wrong so would like a second opinion.

Well, English is not my first language so by saying "boss" I mean the boss and nothing else. I truly apologize if there is any deeper meaning in common communications.

I will stop using this term in future, anyways.

I personally believe that "boss" simply means the ownership of a venture or an entity. Boss is not superior than followers as human-beings. I was mentioning the "ownership" because the owner of this website is an expert and the figure person in the field of researching powermoves; I could not really think about a second person in this field. I was trying to make a point that a person well-trained in powermoves is probably less affected by powermoves.

The last question does not imply that sales skill is all about powermoves. It is a hypothetical scenario about a salesman relies solely on emotional intelligence and social intelligence. It does not imply that all salesmen are the same.

Quote from selffriend on March 25, 2021, 4:42 am

Quote from Matthew Whitewood on March 22, 2021, 10:41 am

Quote from selffoe on March 22, 2021, 10:05 am from "Why Musk was a good salesman (Trying to answer the boss question)"

The boss of this website was not sure why Elon Musk was a good salesman: Elon Musk: The Emotional Idiocy of A Genius | The Power Moves

In my humble opinion, we need to first recognize the following facts:

1. High-income or highly educated individuals are more rational (https://www.nber.org/papers/w16791)
2. Group is more rational than individual (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022103103001793?casa_token=sgGeZn1EvkEAAAAA:3TCbGb718awcLki-7pzyHlttaqnz4E4mj4O16sY-B3oYsLLfIYWQJA2O-VHZSMSJCylaZ_kICWo)
3. Large institute is more rational than individual consumer.

Psychologically manipulating consumers or building an emotional bond with the consumers might work well for average individuals, for example in the retail industry, gambling industry, car and housing market. But for the deals between larger institutes or highly educated individuals, people are more convinced with rationality, logics, intelligence, and statistics.

For example, if the boss of this website is buying a house, will he be convinced if the realtor trying to use power-moves on him, elicit (fake) competition, and build a strong emotional bond with him?

I do regard Lucio as the authority of this website.
However, something feels weird by calling Lucio, "the boss of this website".
It may come across as a bit patronising.
What do you think?

In some cases, calling someone boss can be a sarcastic way of pointing out that you do not appreciate their authority or dominant behaviour.
In other cases, people use it to manipulate others by appealing to their ego.

Saying "in my humble opinion" together with stating the points as facts while quoting the links to academic citations also comes off as smart-alecky.

The last question is a leading question.
It implies sales skills are about using power moves and manipulation.

If the objective of the post was to encourage contributions and other perspectives, I would feel more comfortable if the opinions were stated directly.

I may be reading this whole thing wrong so would like a second opinion.

"In my humble opinion" is used for the same purpose as "I may be reading this whole thing wrong".

If you believe that the phrase is "alecky" please let do elaborate; I do respect your opinions anyways.

Citing academic reference simply adds some rigidity to our discussion rather than make someone "smart". I am not sure if being seen as "smart" here is meaningful as I am not trying to attract women or business partner on this site. To me, this site is a place for learning, self-development, and bringing each others up.

Again, I truly apology if you feel offended by any of my words. In fact I do sometimes offend people in real life, even if I rarely make any comments on a specific person. Your comments did bring me up somewhat because now I realized that some wording might be offensive, and sometimes I need to elaborate more on my true intentions and meanings.

By the way, I recently come to this website and I think I only finished less than 1/10 of the free content. Powermoves are new to me, so I was not able to and I am intend to use them for my benefits. In a communication, I am usually only able to recognize the "verbal meaning" and not able to overthink the deeper meanings.

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on March 25, 2021, 4:55 am

Quote from selffoe on March 25, 2021, 3:17 a

Well, English is not my first language so by saying "boss" I mean the boss and nothing else. I truly apologize if there is any deeper meaning in common communications.

I will stop using this term in future, anyways.

I personally believe that "boss" simply means the ownership of a venture or an entity. Boss is not superior than followers as human-beings. I was mentioning the "ownership" because the owner of this website is an expert and the figure person in the field of researching powermoves; I could not really think about a second person in this field. I was trying to make a point that a person well-trained in powermoves is probably less affected by powermoves.

The last question does not imply that sales skill is all about powermoves. It is a hypothetical scenario about a salesman relies solely on emotional intelligence and social intelligence. It does not imply that all salesmen are the same.

All good from my side.

As you say later on: this forum is to learn, grow, and becoming more effective at life.
And this thread in particular is to learn social and power dynamics, and possible blind spots.

Just to re-state it once again for all: these are not personal attacks, but clarifications and opportunities for self-development.

Cheers!

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on March 25, 2021, 5:48 am

@buffalmano

Hey man, welcome here.

Check the first few messages of this thread, but in short the gist is that it's a thread for very honest feedback and clarifications.

It requires an antifragile ego, but it's a great opportunity for growth.

Now back to us.

When you choose as a nickname the actual surname of someone else, others can think or feel like:

1. You're trying to pass yourself for someone you're not
2. You're trying poke fun at the person you're taking the name from -or have some different, non better identified, less than commendable goal-
3. You're a huge fan of the person you're using for your nickname

Of those three, the first two do nothing good for you.
The third one might ingratiate you to the individual you're taking the name from, but not by much, and it makes you lose point by coming across as too much of a sycophant.

Finally, because your current surname can be confusing to other users of this forum, I suggest you change your nickname.

Quote from John Freeman on March 26, 2021, 4:13 am

@lucio

Hello Lucio,

About this post.

When someone (person A) is addressing somebody else's (person B) and another person (person C) answers for this person, it is a form of triangulation. By doing this, the person creates an intermediary. In this instance, himself. Instead of facilitating the communication between the two persons, it actually prevents it.

Side effect 1: person A can feel as the intermediary (person C) is siding with person B. Person A was communicating with one person and now he's suddenly communicating with two (person B + C). This can also start to frame the interaction as adversarial.

Side effect 2: in this case, person A is asking person B for a clarification. So by person C interpreting person's B answer, person A is still not sure what person B meant.

Side effect 3: Is the interpretation what person C thinks or what person C thinks about what person B said? This adds to the confusion.

In conclusion, I think the best communication practice is direct communication without intermediary. That being said, person A is looking forward to know what person C has to say about the topic aforementioned :)

Cheers!

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on March 26, 2021, 5:00 am

Hey John,

My goal there was to:

1. Simplify and hasten the resolution, so selffoe could have taken my answer and run with  it / build upon it (ie.: "Yeah, Lucio's observation is correct, and the reason I said is... )
2. Surface his point of view, which is a valid one, and probably worth it of being addressed (and if he had not replied, or if he had just replied "you misunderstood", we migh have missed that angle)

Furthermore, there was a power dynamics reason as well.
Selffoe is new, and he's had already been addressed twice on this thread here.

It can be shocking for people to come here, and get mentioned on this thread here right away.
If you look back, several people who first started writing here never came back after having received feedback on their approach / style. I'm cool with that -actually, I'm glad about it, as explained here-.

But that attrition of new users should happen "naturally", with people who do something that calls for that feedback. Saffoe seems like a guy who thinks well and rationally, who can add value.
Your initial message might -might!- have come across as slightly confrontational.
If he had interpreted it that way, it would have been 3 members who had something not very flattering to mention to him. A tough one to swallow for anyone.
So I wanted to make sure he didn't feel like the community was stacked against him -or stacked against newcomers in general-.

But, overall, I see your point of view.
I wouldn't necessarily agree with all of it. I believe that a quick intermediary doesn't necessarily create triangulation and can sometimes help resolution, and facilitate discussion.
But I get your point and I agree that, in many cases, it's best to let people deal with each other directly.

Quote from John Freeman on March 26, 2021, 5:39 am

Thanks for sharing your perspective: I wouldn't necessarily agree with all of it. I believe that it is important to let people answer for themselves. Otherwise it can feel to them as it is patronising as well.

So this does not feel confrontational to you?:

Just out of curiosity, may I ask why are you trying to undermine a poor value-taker, rather than simply ignoring him, and spending your valuable time in making new valuable friends?

Is he your colleague or a core in your social circle?

That is called an accusation. Then I'm asking for clarification and I'm being framed as hitting on the new guy? I'm not sure it's quite fair towards me. This feels uncomfortably familiar to me. Like a pattern, don't you agree?

EDIT: Also, you know the history, so I really don't even understand your answer in the first place. You confuse me Lucio! You confuse me! :D